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  1. #26
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    It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop.

    Its so simple.

    Its an infantry section, but on wheels.
    There is the riflemen, who move forward to contact, and there is the GPMG who covers the movement with firepower if required.
    But your riflemen in the old days were the soft skin cars. The GPMG was the Panhard. Simples.

  2. #27
    BQMS spider pig's Avatar
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    i think infantry on wheels is actually the mechanised infantry role which our infantry is based on.

    Cav have a different role and makeup. First of all a troop is more a kin to a platoon

    As for your advance to contact theory it's a recce unit so the idea is to not get contacted but to get information and pass or on. But they also do flank security or add to the firepower in regular convoys
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  4. #28
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop.

    Its so simple.

    Its an infantry section, but on wheels.
    There is the riflemen, who move forward to contact, and there is the GPMG who covers the movement with firepower if required.
    But your riflemen in the old days were the soft skin cars. The GPMG was the Panhard. Simples.
    Except with the CRV, it is both the old Panhard and Nissan

    Quote Originally Posted by spider pig View Post
    i think infantry on wheels is actually the mechanised infantry role which our infantry is based on.

    Cav have a different role and makeup. First of all a troop is more a kin to a platoon

    As for your advance to contact theory it's a recce unit so the idea is to not get contacted but to get information and pass or on. But they also do flank security or add to the firepower in regular convoys
    Cav's major focus is ISTAR but they have other roles.
    Eg in a mobile offensive, they could be a screen advancing to condact

  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider pig View Post

    As for your advance to contact theory it's a recce unit so the idea is to not get contacted but to get information and pass or on. But they also do flank security or add to the firepower in regular convoys
    Re- read. In support the main force (to follow) and to aid a withdraw from contact should your recce force get into bother, occupational hazard.
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  6. #30
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    na grohmití It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop.
    Seriously! You want to go down that road? Why do you always have something "personal" to say in your posts? Why not just stick to the point in question?

    Its so simple.

    Its an infantry section, but on wheels.
    There is the riflemen, who move forward to contact, and there is the GPMG who covers the movement with firepower if required.
    But your riflemen in the old days were the soft skin cars. The GPMG was the Panhard. Simples.
    Your talking about Mech infantry not an armoured recce force. It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop. Or the difference between Mech Infantry and Cavalry.
    Last edited by FMP; 1st April 2015 at 12:07.
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  7. #31
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    @ hptmurphy.

    Why would Support Troop not have MRVs as opposed to dismounts with deployable weapons?Concept of OPs for Cav was that Support would provide fire support for a recce element and be able to disengage rapidly.
    Your support troop in BRF are there to provide indirect fire support to your A + B troop in the event of withdraw from contact (again an occupational hazard) your MRV's would most probably be in an advance to contact role with your maneuver Sqn. A + B Troop can provide an element of fire and manuver during same (while calling in FIRES) but SP Troop would put down the required screening and / or HE / ATGW assets, having DF'ed the area its Troops are operating in. Not forgetting most of the vehicles are armed 12.7, 7.62 and there are 6 x ATGW within the Sqn. Their ability to call in FIRES gives them access to 120 mm and 105 mm from Arty gun lines don't forget (because now STA is located where it needs to be).

    Support Platoon in an Infantry set up would have the weapons suggested for enhanced ops and for prolonged engagements.
    Idea is not to get involved in a prolonged engagement but identify enemy force movements and provide ISTAR on same so Brigade commander can task his motorised infantry while Cav "main force" move to provide mechanized armoured infantry intervention in support of said motorised infantary.

    The full Cavalry squadron in its original format as a Brigade Recce element was quite similar to that you suggest but mortars were an an inbuilt component of AML 60s, a very useful mobile mortar platform,
    60's no longer in the inventory so you need an alternative, PIII's with a mortar det would do the job nicely.

    The Armoured section deploying both soft skins armour with Heavy weapons and anti tank capability.
    Idea is to try and move away from that soft skin / armoured mix in the troops.

    Amalgamate your Q troop back into the HQ troop, redesignate 'A' troop as the 'Recce Troop' and 'B' Troop as Armour.. guess what , your back to where a Cav Squadron should have been from inception.
    Again from a tactical point of view you do not want your B vehicle train anywhere near your armour, remember there recce and therefore right up at the tip of the spear, the first elements that will lightly encounter an enemy unit (their recce screen). Q Troop in a harbour under cover linked with your brigade forward elements.

    The removal of the key vehicles meant the squadrons had to be re aligned to their current setup as there was no vehicle in sight as a replacement for the AML 90 , but as the MRV now fills that role, you could actually be back to square one.
    You wont have lost your MRV's there just part of the "Main Cav force", literally a case of Cav to the rescue.

    the major problem in the Irish Army as it always has been , the larger the unit, the more appointments to be maintained and filled. Due to the nature in which troops are deployed overseas and at home on course on duties etc, actually maintaining the unit as per its declared strenght is albeit impossible. The unit as described has too many specialist vacancies and will suffer as a result. If the amount of specialists is kept to a minimum but the require features retained you have some hope of keeping it working.
    But their being maintained and filled as it is?!?! Just in penny packets with different units around the country. All i have done is group them together into a cohesive unit which actually makes it easier to deploy them overseas etc, "ISTAR unit required for the NBG, A Troop, off you go,,,,,,and take HQ Troop with you etc. etc". I see what your saying and understand it, hence all armour in the DF should be Cav owned and crewed. MFC's, FOO's and JTAC's are not from the Infantry, Artillery or Air Force, there Cav who have been trained up, same as your vehicle crews and for the most part the bods in the back.

    Interesting stuff.
    Last edited by FMP; 1st April 2015 at 12:45.
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  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    What Main Force? Everybody's too busy ISTAR-ing away like mad to be doing grunt work. No mention of truck or jeep/pajero/4x4 numbers or the 120mm mortar...
    If you look at it again there is still a lot to cover and I will. (Where are the CRV's, MRV's and the rest of the PIII's???)

    Soft skin's??? Its an armoured recce force with the ability to call in FIRES via their STA capability. B Vehicles = truck/jeep/pajero/4x4, admin and support of the armoured fleet, not up front getting in the way or mallated.
    Last edited by FMP; 1st April 2015 at 11:48.
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  9. #33
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    Arrow

    Anyway onto your "Main Cav Force".

    The teeth of your Cav formation and the crowd that comes to the rescue of your brigade commander and his motorised infantry (and bits). A division level (or the DF equivalent) high readiness reaction force.

    Lets go with Force Mobile Reserve (go with what YOU know).

    Comprised of a Recce / Fire support Sqn, 2 x Maneuver Sqn's and the usual HQ and Q elements.

    FMR Orbat:

    Recce Sqn:

    A Troop:
    4 x CRV
    16 x Dismounts
    (CTR"s, OP's, Sniper teams etc. etc.)

    B Troop:
    4 x CRV
    16 x Dismounts
    (CTR"s, OP's, Sniper teams etc. etc.)

    C Troop:
    4 x MRV

    HQ Troop:
    1 x PIII CV (O/C Sqn)
    1 x PIII APC (2 I/C + SSM)
    2 x MRV


    Maneuver Sqn x 2

    A Troop:
    4 x PIII APC
    3 x Section + HQ

    B Troop:
    4 x PIII APC
    3 x Section + HQ

    C Troop:
    4 x PIII APC
    3 x Section + HQ

    SP Troop:
    4 x PIII APC
    2 x Javlin + 2 x 81 mm Mortar

    HQ Troop:
    1 x PIII CV (O/C Sqn)
    2 x PIII APC (2 I/C +SSM)
    1 x PIII Ambo


    Cav Corps HQ:

    HQ Troop: Tac 1 + Tac 2
    2 x PIII CV
    2 x PIII APC
    2 x LATV STD

    Armd Fitter Section:
    1 x PIII Fitter
    1 x LATV STD

    Q Sqn:
    B Vehicles
    (Diesel, oil, water, rats, ammo etc. etc. etc.)

    Total numbers of armoured vehicles used in the Recce Sqn, both Maneuver Sqn's etc.:

    8 x CRV
    6 x MRV
    5 x PIII CV
    2 x PIII Ambo
    1 x PIII Fitter
    3 x LATV STD
    40 x PIII APC

    Above numbers plus the BRF numbers actually exist in your inventory (according to numbers available on here and the DF website so no cloud 9 stuff required). How many are still in working order is anyone's guess but got to start somewhere.

    A question was asked "why only 4 dismounts in the BRF C Troop (and the FMR Recce A & B Troops). Specalised troops who will insert into OP's, carry out CTR's and will have a number of sniper teams among them. That's a lot of kit that needs to be carried in their wagon. Its not about putting arses on seats its about putting the right arses on seats and ensuring they have all their kit to hand. Add a CG 84 mm to each of the afore mentioned vehicle and you wont have room to swing a nat!

    Putting arses on seats is what the Maneuver Sqn's are about.

    Because everything is in-house Cav all expertise is under one roof, from maintenance to TTP's.

    It also gives you a very flexible adaptable force for those overseas deployments.

    A maneuver Sqn with troop attachments from FMR Recce and the BRF gives you a half decent armoured unit that can be configured to various mission profiles. Add or remove troops as the mission requires. But at the heart of it you have 2 x BRF Recce / ISTAR Sqn's in support of their assigned brigades and a FMR in support of them. All under one roof, Cav! Not in bits and bob's spread out around various units all over the country just because they all want some of the pie. Deploying vehicles here and there in two's and threes's with no mutual support is pointless. It achieves nothing and was one of the first lessons learned in WWI (By the Germans) hope we have moved on a bit since then.
    Last edited by FMP; 1st April 2015 at 13:44.
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  11. #34
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    In a conventional scenario, where is your support Tp (with 81s) going to be?
    - if behind the FEBA they will be out of range
    - if up in the middle with a troop, you will be out of range of the other 2 (and extremely vunerable)

    Armour generally works in 2 sections or 2 vehicles (with direct fire wpns), 1 section providing overwatch while the other moves (that is Western tactics). With stabilised wpns they can do this on the move and therefore get out of trouble quickly.

    Cav operate so far forward, the only fires that they can call on would be 155/MLRS/air/naval. Even if you put a 105 in the middle on the FEBA, the Cav could be out of range.

    So you propose to have a Cav Bn/Regt?
    What do the infantry travel in because you've taken all their APCs?

  12. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMP View Post
    Seriously! You want to go down that road? Why do you always have something "personal" to say in your posts? Why not just stick to the point in question?



    Your talking about Mech infantry not an armoured recce force. It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop. Or the difference between Mech Infantry and Cavalry.
    Eh.
    No.
    I was Cavalry. What's your excuse? You seem to have first understood, then completely misunderstood my post.
    Mech infantry is infantry who walk less, and have vehicles in support instead of people with mortars and anti tank guns on their back.
    Cavalry is (Here anyway) light armoured recce. I was using the soldier analogy to avoid entering the Opsec world.
    I will send you a polite PM to explain our orbat here. Promise me you are not a spy first. Or do you still think I am a Brit Hater (even though I have ancestors who served in the RMF, RIC and QARNS).

  13. #36
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    If the CAV have all the steel, what are the boots left with? Mans and Scanias? No gun heavier than 12.7? Unless it's a short-ranged 40mm grenade launcher? No integrated artillery because the gunners are off minding their own empire elsewhere, so no mortar bigger than an 81mm, which means nothing can be hit out side a 4 or 5 km radius, in defence or attack? Are we not allowed to bring actual artillery on the road? Does anyone actually plan to ever bring the 105s (probably the most portable field gun ever built) overseas?

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  15. #37
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    @ FMP

    I assume you now want to disband the mechanised infantry role ( best of luck with that one as the gravel agitators are going to be a might sickened)as you have used up every piece of armour in the country ,a signficant portion of which is actually deployed overseas as we speak as part of a composite unit, and given it takes a ratio of 1:3 to ensure the requirement for a car is retained you squadron will have no more that probably 15 AFVs/ APCs available to you at any one time. Those are the realities.

    Now to the non productive pissing match..
    The old concept of Cavalry is so far removed from it being a mounted infantry section, the roles being so diverse there is no comparrison.The basic make up was top heavy with NCOS and officers to highlight the diversity required.

    Now back to the discussion.....If you were deploying your 'super' squadron in would be in line witha 'normal' brigade..we never had that to start with again everything being understrenght with each unit only having enough mobility to deploy a company at a time , never mind a Bn.
    On paper it looks good but 30% of what you suggest would be a more realistic figure for one squadron.

    I notice you neglect to include the LTAVs in anything other than the HQ where in fact part of the thinking behind them was to employ them in the role of deploying anti armour teams and snipers/ recce troops, another over looked asset being DR's again very valuable to troop commanders.

    I base my arguments around my previous appointments as recce section cpl and sergeant and recce trp sgt

    I understand the conceptual nature but to tinge it with reality..as the lady said to the black feller...beaucoup too big!
    Time for another break I think......

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  17. #38
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Cav operate so far forward, the only fires that they can call on would be 155/MLRS/air/naval. Even if you put a 105 in the middle on the FEBA, the Cav could be out of range.
    This is why they had an AML 90, they didn't need fire support if the were engaged out of range but given the role was significantly changed and the support vehicle is now an MRV they won't put them selves out of range of their support.
    Point being missed being the Cav primary role is largely redundant due to Recce teams whether they be SF/Medium or CRT, aerial recce or satellite imagery.

    CRT was supposed to be based on teams inserted by LTAYs and withdrawl and support covered by MRVs....
    Time for another break I think......

  18. #39
    BQMS spider pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Eh.
    No.
    I was Cavalry. What's your excuse? You seem to have first understood, then completely misunderstood my post.
    Mech infantry is infantry who walk less, and have vehicles in support instead of people with mortars and anti tank guns on their back.
    Cavalry is (Here anyway) light armoured recce. I was using the soldier analogy to avoid enterin Opsec world.
    I will send you a polite PM to explain our orbat here. Promise me you are not a spy first. Or do you still think I am a Brit Hater (even though I have ancestors who served in the RMF, RIC and QARNS).


    What on earth are you talking about? Where did I imply you're a Brit hater? Or that I care?
    I'm fully aware of how a Cav unit works
    Maybe I'd did misread your comment but the way it came across to me was that you were talking abot mech infantry


    Dev yes I know they have other roles as you've stated
    Last edited by spider pig; 1st April 2015 at 22:57.
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  19. #40
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    FMP,

    As its says in the link, while the (Bde) Cav Sqn primary role is ISTAR, the tasks it can be assigned are extremely varied. Therefore you need a mixture of vehicles, equipment and weapons within the troop (and possibly section).

    As I've stated, often the Cav elements will be outside the Bde's organic indirect fire assets (ie the 105s & 120s). Although they must have the ability to call fires in (be it air or arty (when within range). For this reason, the Cav Troop must have organic support weapons (primarily the main weapon(s) on their vehicles (and those carried within)). They also often will operate as a self contained troop by itself.

    I would suggest that the LTAV is actually too small to carry a CTR/OP team (while also providing local security for the vehicle). For this reason, you need CRVs and/or MRVs in the recce troops.

    The Cav Sqn OC must also have a reserve (also capable of being tasked independently), in the form of a Support Troop. There are various options - MRV (if the Recce Troops have CRVs), CRVs and/or APCs (if the Recce Troops have LTAVs). You could give them 81s but they will be of limited use (out of range).

    We have issues with the amount of assets we have and their availability, but so does every other military.

    In a LTAV, CRV and MRV, all the crew (2/3 personnel must be trained in each others jobs (it won't always happen unfortunately). You would want your CRV and MRV mounted DE trained in recce and other cav tactics plus 84/Javelin, where equipped. You then have a few snipers in one element in support. You can attach a FOO from the arty if necessary.

    In order to retain all arms brigades, we need a suitable manned and equipped Cav Sqn in each of the 2 brigades (so that is in 2 locations only). You then pick which Cav Sqn is going to be the lead for the EUBG.

    Your "force reserve" is actually merging 1 Armd Car Sqn, 1 Mech Coy (actually now 2 coys) and giving it a HQ. The DF is a small community and in some ways it would make a lot of sense to centralise the assets in the Cav but the raison d'ete of mech inf and cav are very different. Currently, 1 Mech Coy is the centre of expertise on the MOWAG they train everyone else in the DF.

    1 ACS and 1 Mech aren't miles away from each other - it's probably a 5 minute walk! So if the Cav Sqns had MRVs & CRVs they are in 3 locations only.





    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Does anyone actually plan to ever bring the 105s (probably the most portable field gun ever built) overseas?
    A Fd Arty Bty is on the palette of forces for the HHLG. Will it ever happen????





    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Point being missed being the Cav primary role is largely redundant due to Recce teams whether they be SF/Medium or CRT, aerial recce or satellite imagery.

    CRT was supposed to be based on teams inserted by LTAYs and withdrawl and support covered by MRVs....
    SF are the strategic level, Cav would be operational level. Medium recce & CTR are cav roles. Aerial recce (and satellites) can't see everything (UAVs are an arty asset).

  20. #41
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    SF are the strategic level, Cav would be operational level. Medium recce & CTR are cav roles. Aerial recce (and satellites) can't see everything (UAVs are an arty asset).
    Traditional boundaries and empire retention being an obstacle that needs to be over come.

    1 ACS and 1 Mech aren't miles away from each other - it's probably a 5 minute walk! So if the Cav Sqns had MRVs & CRVs they are in 3 locations only.
    Which is fine as all the troops to be equipped should be in the same location. We know longer have a strategic reason for having units outside one main centre, having units spread throughout various locations is half the problem.

    Again we don't need a two brigade army, we need a single brigade , fully manned and equipped and within in that would be a combined weapons unit either deployed or preparing to deploy in Bn sized units.

    I would suggest that the LTAV is actually too small to carry a CTR/OP team (while also providing local security for the vehicle).
    CTR teams we never supposed to have vehicles attached for the duration of an op and were supposed to be inserted and retrieve by the squadrons mainbody as opposed to having an independant vehicle attached.If the LTAV can't do that, ie carry four plus equipment..guess what..we bought the wrong vehicle as using an Piranha 3 or MRV to undertake this role is wasteful.
    Time for another break I think......

  21. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider pig View Post
    What on earth are you talking about? Where did I imply you're a Brit hater? Or that I care?
    I'm fully aware of how a Cav unit works
    Maybe I'd did misread your comment but the way it came across to me was that you were talking abot mech infantry


    Dev yes I know they have other roles as you've stated
    Was talking to FMP.

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  23. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Traditional boundaries and empire retention being an obstacle that needs to be over come.
    Not really, the rarer and smaller the asset the higher op the foot chain it is deployed. Eg the Wing doesn't have a platoon for each infantry battalion. They are a strategic force multiplier therefore they are only deployed for the most strategic taskings, we cannot afford to deploy them as a standing patrol 1km in front.

    The UAVs probably should be available to the Cav as well. But it does make sense to have them as an arty STA asset as well.

    CTR teams we never supposed to have vehicles attached for the duration of an op and were supposed to be inserted and retrieve by the squadrons mainbody as opposed to having an independant vehicle attached.If the LTAV can't do that, ie carry four plus equipment..guess what..we bought the wrong vehicle as using an Piranha 3 or MRV to undertake this role is wasteful.
    +1

    LTAV is the wrong vehicle for dropping of a CTR (2 crew & 2 pax), it could do a static/mobile OP, escort, drop a sniper pair off etc

  24. #44
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    This thread is desperately in need of PDF intervention...
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  26. #45
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    http://www.dfmagazine.ie/site-assets...-_Oct_2010.pdf
    Page 17

    From the MRVs and LTAVs the following are deployed:
    - sniper team
    - CTR team
    - FOO team with AMSTAR radar and UAV
    - Engineer Recce Team

  27. #46
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    The Istar company was discussed at lenght in An Cosantoir in September 2012, detailing sub units and the vehicles attached to them.

    What most of the debate misses is that the Cavalry squadrons are essentially a training units for the deployment of subunits overseas, and the vehicle pool reflects this. The only overseas deployments that exist for Cav are the Cavalry troop for the Recce Company of the infantry battalion ala Chad and Lebanon Mk 3 and the Istar Company ala Nordic and Deutch battalegroup.

    Trying to shoo horn our vehicle requrements into the british doctrine misses the post that (A) we are unlikely to ever deploy a brigade in the field, ((B) that it ignores the way other states such as germany and in particlular france and the US carry out reconnaissance, and are now more influential than British thinking on the matter. What people arte doing is trying to make the british formation reconnaissance squadron as a model without realising that the squadron is designed for reconnaissance in front of an armoured brigade.

    The Americans very kindly publish most of their field manuals online, (just google them) but if you read them you'll see that doctrine in ISTAR Company and the reconnaissiance element of the PSO infantry battalion is now closer to the US army stryker battalions, and the French Concept of GTIA is now more influential for overseas than british doctrine.
    Last edited by paul g; 3rd April 2015 at 17:54. Reason: crap spelling

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  29. #47
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    How many dismounts does the CRV & MRV hold?

    Did I hear 6 and 4 or something like that ?

  30. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    How many dismounts does the CRV & MRV hold?

    Did I hear 6 and 4 or something like that ?
    Depends on who you heard it from.... #opsec

  31. #49
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    It was a public source (possibly An Cosantoir), PM if necessary

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    From public sorces (photos and open days)

    The CRV has 6 passenger seats and the MRV has 4.

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