Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Suggesting a new Cav ORBAT

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    MOD: use publicly available info only

    Comment


    • #17
      If we look how our nearest neighbour ORBAT for a Armd Recce Sqn (nearest equivalent to a Cav Sqn):

      HQ Tp (2xSultan, 2xSamitarian)
      3 x Recce Tp (each with 4xScimitar)
      GW Tp (4xStriker)
      Sp Tp (4xSpartan)
      Mech Section (Spartan & Spartan)

      Broadly speaking a Cav Sqn would be similar.

      So ideally, Cav Sqn
      HQ Tp with LTAVs
      3 x Recce Tp (each with 4xCRV or 2xCRV & 2xLTAV or 2xCRV Recce Tp & 1xLTAV Recce Tp)
      Sp Tp (4xMRV & 1xFitter vehicle)

      Comment


      • #18
        That's exactly where my thoughts lay.

        With the Armd Recce Sqn providing Brigade level Cav recce element, but also looking at higher formation supporting elements (Division level if you will, combination of the two Brigades). Maneuver Sqn's with organic fire and recce support etc. etc. Just giggling numbers and what not at the moment. Looking at tasks and what ideally would be required to complete those tasks with what you have to hand. Pretty well used everything up actually, and not just for the sake of it. Will work on it as the evening goes on.

        Keeping the gray matter occupied.
        We travel not for trafficking alone,
        By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
        For lust of knowing what should not be known,
        We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

        Comment


        • #19
          Brigade level first. Don't forget gents this is just me exercising my gray matter, (ORBAT's! My version of counting sheep).

          There is a few years of "doing it" behind the train of thought though so its not all a result of sleep deprivation .

          What is this Cav Sqn going to do? In a nutshell ISTAR! Now for a name, I'm going with Brigade Reconnaissance Force (Go with what you know ).

          The Brigade Reconnaissance Force (BRF). A squadron sized unit, using protected vehicles to identify and if necessary strike hostile elements, through organic means (e.g. ATGW and Mortars) and non organic means (e.g. Brigade level Artillery gun lines and Infantry mortar lines) "target acquisition". The basic task of the BRF is to obtain accurate information through surveillance and reconnaissance about the enemy and develop an intelligence picture in their areas of responsibility for their senior commander (Brigade Commander), in order to allow him to make informed decisions and task assets accordingly. In a defensive scenario they are to identify the direction and strength of the enemy thrusts, impose maximum delay and damage to the enemy's reconnaissance forces, while allowing main forces to maneuver to combat the threat. The other element to this "New Cav Corps" and will cover it later.

          Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, Reconnaissance. Their bread and butter. What is required in order to achieve this is the grouping together of asset capable (ISR / STA) vehicles to allow the various ISTAR elements to combine. Both Brigades to have identical Sqn's.

          BRF ORBAT:

          A Troop:
          1 x LATV ISR
          1 x LATV STA
          2 x LATV STD (ATGW)

          B Troop:
          1 x LATV ISR
          1 x LATV STA
          2 x LATV STD (ATGW)

          C Troop:
          4 x PIII APC
          16 x Dismounts (OP's, CTR's, Snipers, FP etc.)

          SP Troop:
          2 x LATV STD (ATGW)
          2 x PIII APC (81 mm Mortars)

          HQ Troop:
          1 x LATV CIS
          1 x LATV ISR (2 i/c)
          1 x PIII CV (OC Sqn)
          1 x PIII APC (SSM)

          Q Troop:
          B Vehicles (Diesel, oils, lube, water, rats, ammo etc.)
          Soft skin fitter section and wrecker. Same for Ambo (Not enough of the required type of PIII's)

          Total numbers of armoured vehicles used across both Brigades in the two Sqn's:

          6 x LATV Intelligence / Surveillance / Reconnaissance (ISR).
          4 x LATV Surveillance & Target Acquisition (STA).
          12 x LATV Standard (STD).
          2 x LATV Communications & Information Services (CIS).
          2 x PIII Command Vehicle (CV).
          14 x PIII Armoured Personnel Carrier (APC).

          By way of a p.s.

          1. The LATV STD was unfortunately not fitted with RWS as was the original plan. That leaves the 2 x ISTAR troops (A & B Troop) a little light on firepower. But their role is to gather Int covertly and pass it up the chain. Call in FIRES when required and they still have the capability to destroy Armour etc. via Javelin ATGW. All without getting too up close and personal with the enemy.

          2. The mortar section consists of only 2 x tubes so mass fire missions will not be the order of the day but they are obviously capable of putting HE on an advancing enemy. Illum and Smoke will be their primary missions, Illum over the FEBA in support of the main force night time advance to contact for example. Smoke screening and / or HE in support of the ISTAR troop etc. as they withdraw from contact.

          3. I'm guessing there will be lots of "where are the CRV's and MRV's?" Have not forgotten about them and they have their part to play within the "Main (Cav) force". Recce as opposed to ISTAR which is of course their role. You could of course add a CRV troop to the above and a Maneuver Sqn, but all that can be discussed later. Want to give you the basic overall "New Cav Corps" layout before that. Once its there, flexibility and the ability to adapt to various mission profiles becomes clearer. You just need your conventional war type ORBAT in place first.
          We travel not for trafficking alone,
          By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
          For lust of knowing what should not be known,
          We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

          Comment


          • #20
            What Main Force? Everybody's too busy ISTAR-ing away like mad to be doing grunt work. No mention of truck or jeep/pajero/4x4 numbers or the 120mm mortar...

            Comment


            • #21
              Can we be realistic with numbers as well?

              4 MOWAGs in C Tp to carry 16 dismounts? They will fit in 2, how many do we have again?

              LTAVs were purchased for inf, Cav, arty and engr
              Last edited by DeV; 31 March 2015, 19:33.

              Comment


              • #22
                The missions they undertake etc:
                The Army is organised on conventional military lines providing a sufficiently flexible structure to carry out all the roles assigned by Government. The Army is a standing force and provides the primary capabilities for joint military operations at home and combined military Peace Support Operations abroad.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  Can we be realistic with numbers as well?

                  4 MOWAGs in C Tp to carry 16 dismounts? They will fit in 2, how many do we have again?

                  LTAVs were purchased for inf, Cav, arty and engr
                  CIS. Not Engineers.
                  "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    SP Troop:
                    2 x LATV STD (ATGW)
                    2 x PIII APC (81 mm Mortars)
                    Why would Support Troop not have MRVs as opposed to dismounts with deployable weapons?

                    Concept of OPs for Cav was that Support would provide fire support for a recce element and be able to disengage rapidly.

                    Support Platoon in an Infantry set up would have the weapons suggested for enhanced ops and for prolonged engagements.

                    The full Cavalry squadron in its original format as a Brigade Recce element was quite similar to that you suggest but mortars were an an inbuilt component of AML 60s, a very useful mobile mortar platform, The Armoured section deploying both soft skins armour with Heavy weapons and anti tank capability.

                    Redeploy C troop across A and B troops give each troop one MRV with the specialists attached.

                    Amalgamate your Q troop back into the HQ troop, redesignate 'A' troop as the 'Recce Troop' and 'B' Troop as Armour.. guess what , your back to where a Cav Squadron should have been from inception.

                    The removal of the key vehicles meant the squadrons had to be re aligned to their current setup as there was no vehicle in sight as a replacement for the AML 90 , but as the MRV now fills that role, you could actually be back to square one.

                    the major problem in the Irish Army as it always has been , the larger the unit, the more appointments to be maintained and filled. Due to the nature in which troops are deployed overseas and at home on course on duties etc, actually maintaining the unit as per its declared strenght is albeit impossible. The unit as described has too many specialist vacancies and will suffer as a result. If the amount of specialists is kept to a minimum but the require features retained you have some hope of keeping it working.

                    The key problem being we have three units declared as being able to do the same role but in effect due to equipment distribution only one could be formed from the units combined.

                    Solution. Disband one, and reform the other two using the excess, equip one fully and riate the other through the role say every two years giving time for up skilling, overseas deployments, career course etc.

                    Again hypothetical.
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                      Why would Support Troop not have MRVs as opposed to dismounts with deployable weapons?

                      Concept of OPs for Cav was that Support would provide fire support for a recce element and be able to disengage rapidly.

                      Support Platoon in an Infantry set up would have the weapons suggested for enhanced ops and for prolonged engagements.

                      The full Cavalry squadron in its original format as a Brigade Recce element was quite similar to that you suggest but mortars were an an inbuilt component of AML 60s, a very useful mobile mortar platform, The Armoured section deploying both soft skins armour with Heavy weapons and anti tank capability.

                      Redeploy C troop across A and B troops give each troop one MRV with the specialists attached.

                      Amalgamate your Q troop back into the HQ troop, redesignate 'A' troop as the 'Recce Troop' and 'B' Troop as Armour.. guess what , your back to where a Cav Squadron should have been from inception.

                      The removal of the key vehicles meant the squadrons had to be re aligned to their current setup as there was no vehicle in sight as a replacement for the AML 90 , but as the MRV now fills that role, you could actually be back to square one.

                      the major problem in the Irish Army as it always has been , the larger the unit, the more appointments to be maintained and filled. Due to the nature in which troops are deployed overseas and at home on course on duties etc, actually maintaining the unit as per its declared strenght is albeit impossible. The unit as described has too many specialist vacancies and will suffer as a result. If the amount of specialists is kept to a minimum but the require features retained you have some hope of keeping it working.

                      The key problem being we have three units declared as being able to do the same role but in effect due to equipment distribution only one could be formed from the units combined.

                      Solution. Disband one, and reform the other two using the excess, equip one fully and riate the other through the role say every two years giving time for up skilling, overseas deployments, career course etc.

                      Again hypothetical.


                      +1

                      Only comment I would have would be that the 3 recce troops should have the same set up and equipment (as far as possible, budgets being the major issue) so they can all undertake the same tasks.

                      What is the DE in the CRV and MRV? 6 and 4 ?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop.

                        Its so simple.

                        Its an infantry section, but on wheels.
                        There is the riflemen, who move forward to contact, and there is the GPMG who covers the movement with firepower if required.
                        But your riflemen in the old days were the soft skin cars. The GPMG was the Panhard. Simples.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          i think infantry on wheels is actually the mechanised infantry role which our infantry is based on.

                          Cav have a different role and makeup. First of all a troop is more a kin to a platoon

                          As for your advance to contact theory it's a recce unit so the idea is to not get contacted but to get information and pass or on. But they also do flank security or add to the firepower in regular convoys
                          Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                            It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop.

                            Its so simple.

                            Its an infantry section, but on wheels.
                            There is the riflemen, who move forward to contact, and there is the GPMG who covers the movement with firepower if required.
                            But your riflemen in the old days were the soft skin cars. The GPMG was the Panhard. Simples.
                            Except with the CRV, it is both the old Panhard and Nissan

                            Originally posted by spider pig View Post
                            i think infantry on wheels is actually the mechanised infantry role which our infantry is based on.

                            Cav have a different role and makeup. First of all a troop is more a kin to a platoon

                            As for your advance to contact theory it's a recce unit so the idea is to not get contacted but to get information and pass or on. But they also do flank security or add to the firepower in regular convoys
                            Cav's major focus is ISTAR but they have other roles.
                            Eg in a mobile offensive, they could be a screen advancing to condact

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by spider pig View Post

                              As for your advance to contact theory it's a recce unit so the idea is to not get contacted but to get information and pass or on. But they also do flank security or add to the firepower in regular convoys
                              Re- read. In support the main force (to follow) and to aid a withdraw from contact should your recce force get into bother, occupational hazard.
                              We travel not for trafficking alone,
                              By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                              For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                              We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                na grohmití It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop.
                                Seriously! You want to go down that road? Why do you always have something "personal" to say in your posts? Why not just stick to the point in question?

                                Its so simple.

                                Its an infantry section, but on wheels.
                                There is the riflemen, who move forward to contact, and there is the GPMG who covers the movement with firepower if required.
                                But your riflemen in the old days were the soft skin cars. The GPMG was the Panhard. Simples.
                                Your talking about Mech infantry not an armoured recce force. It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop. Or the difference between Mech Infantry and Cavalry.
                                Last edited by FMP; 1 April 2015, 13:07.
                                We travel not for trafficking alone,
                                By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                                For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                                We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X