PC9 air to ground gunnery query?

[morpheus]

Hi all,

Having been an avid fan of air to ground gunnery over the years and spent many a day watching marchettis and PC9s firing at gormo from the cliffs... was wondering is there any other ranges used by the AC at all?

For example on an ex last year we had the AC fly over in support on an LFTT, in a mock strafing run and Dem's were set off to simulate air to ground rocket attacks on our targets.

Would the AC never use the glen in this manner with these aircraft? Im aware the AW139's do fire in this manner in the glen.

I do recall hearing there was also a range of some sort off the west coast previously, maybe this was near finner? Although im not sure in what capacity the 500m runway in finner was used!?

Just asking! cheers all

[DeV]

There is a danger area off Galley Head in Cork but not sure if used by AC

[GoneToTheCanner]

The Glen was rejected as an air firing range because of the danger of ricochets and the fact that it is often under cloud. You need a cloudbase of something like 3500 feet, which is rare in the Glen.

[F_M]

Page 3 gives the the locations and heights above the ranges which the AC could use. http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Publ...ENR_5_1_EN.pdf

[Battletour]

There used to be an air firing range in Kilworth but was 'logistically inconvenient'. The Air Corps moved to Gormonston and began using the range there in 1935.

[cooley]

Air to ground firing from PC9's has been done in the Glen. Witnessed it. (Not a simulation either).

[GoneToTheCanner]

The potential for running into granite is much greater at the Glen than any other range, as is the possibility of low cloud. A pilot cannot make a diving run with cloud below him....the weather at Gormo is invariably better than the weather in the Glen. If you miss at Gormo, the shots fall harmlessly into the sea. If you miss or overshoot in the Glen, who knows where your 12.7 or RP end up?

[meridian]

Air to ground firing from PC9's has been done in the Glen. Witnessed it. (Not a simulation either).

A link back to some video of this done back in 2011

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?11138-PC-9M-for-COIN-ops&p=342039&viewfull=1#post342039

[GoneToTheCanner]

...and when he starts the run, he's in and out of cloud, gets a quick look at the target and makes his run, gets maybe two seconds worth off and then on his pullout, has to roll to avoid going into cloud again. He can't pull up directly ahead as there's 3000 feet of granite ahead of him, under cloud. This kind of shit encourages low-level attack runs, which increases the risk of ricochets, over and undershoots and would be lethal to the crew in a real shooting war. That's why Gormo was chosen in the first place; no granite,better weather, no risk from overshoots......the Army range wardens and the mountain rescue people spent quite a lot of time at the back of the range dealing with overshoots. Might be no harm to consult with the experts on the island next door, instead of trying to rewrite the book.

[X-RayOne]

the other side of the arguement is that asides from basic run, clear sky, no obstickles air to ground gunnery the PC 9 crews have no relaistic experience or skills in providing air to ground fire support because Gormo is all they do.

One of their tasks is air/ground support and unless there is a battalion floating off the coast of Gormanston the AC have never achieved/attempted to be competent in their tasking in a realistic environment. maybe they should take a quick spin across the pond to the experts and play with them for a bit?

[hptmurphy]

There is a danger area off Galley Head in Cork but not sure if used by AC

Naval Range

[GoneToTheCanner]

That's true but conducting AG in a benign environment is better for first timers. If they have an existing protocol that demands a high cloudbase/clear viz/no granite, then they should stick to it and then develop protocols for reduced cloudbase/lower viz/presence of uneven ground/renewed egress procedure. It would be no harm to bring in a few sweats from other air arms to teach them confined space/weather AG operations for fixed wing and rotary. the Glen was rejected for good reasons and it would be foolhardy to reopen it for fixed wing AG without good assessment.

[X-RayOne]

That's true but conducting AG in a benign environment is better for first timers. If they have an existing protocol that demands a high cloudbase/clear viz/no granite, then they should stick to it

Absolutely agree with this part. You don't jump straight into SIA on day one of tactics. Its a learnt build up to the end result. However, not all AC pilots are first timers at AG and they don't seem to ever have progressed past the initial step.

develop protocols for reduced cloudbase/lower viz/presence of uneven ground/renewed egress procedure.

Here's my point. They should be doing this, and learning it from people with greater experience, but never have. In all the years of Fougas, Marchettis, PC 9s, etc. we haven't. It's a sad waste of an excellent asset and a missed opportunity for aircrew to develop and learn new skills.

The heli crews seemed to have completely embraced the AW139s and pushed on with developing their capabilities re. NVG flying, low level flying, AG gunnery, etc. perhaps fixed wing need to take a look across the flight line at the other Wing and take a few lessons??

[GoneToTheCanner]

Well, they have done FAC courses so it's not lack of knowledge and pilots have probably done exchange trips abroad and in a small air arm, the fixed wing people can't avoid the stuff going on in the rotary side and I suspect the NVG is already part of the fixed-wing set-up in certain quarters. If the PC-9 instrument panel is NVG-suitable, then there's nothing stopping them doing some night gunnery. failing that, take advice from the neighbours, who have been firing out of aircraft for about 90 years now;-)

[Tenet]

The heli crews seemed to have completely embraced the AW139s and pushed on with developing their capabilities re. NVG flying, low level flying, AG gunnery, etc. perhaps fixed wing need to take a look across the flight line at the other Wing and take a few lessons??

The AW139's use the GPMG (7.62mm) in the D5 from lower altitude. The PC-9M uses the HMG (12.7mm) but the dive angle and altitude that they need in order to be able to pull out of a dive to avoid the high terrain in the Glen means that the range templates from the Ordnance Corps prevent them using the D5 for AG gunnery. The Glen is simply too small for that calibre of weapon mounted on a FW aircraft. Using the NS range off Cork would avoid terrain issues, but is then effectively the same as the D1 while wasting additional fuel/time/landing charges getting to Cork.
Its not a case that they won't do it...they want to. They simply can't for safety reasons.