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River class OPVs, NS, RN, etc

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  • #91
    Originally posted by danno View Post
    At this stage the RN must be well down the rankings for first rate navies. I wonder if the Mandarins in Whitehall would reconsider matters if there were persistant incursions in areas of UK interest by uniits of a large Russian fleet.
    The SSN's and the QE's buy them the rankings still, but I hope they keep the skippers driving them up on rocks to a minimum cause at this stage they running out of numbers. Honestly I think the RN should have accepted some degree of compromise and gone for a common hull between the Frigates and Destroyers (given the sizes of both the 45 and 26), and get more than this current mini fleets with the knock on costs.

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    • #92
      A common hull might be difficult if the FFG version has different propulsion system.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by danno View Post
        A common hull might be difficult if the FFG version has different propulsion system.
        The Burkes seem to manage it to a degree? I mean the FFG's have more silencing installation, but couldn't that be made to work anyway on a DDG. From memory the top speed of the 45's and the 26's are going to be similar. If the UK had retained the larger numbers (12 Destroyers + the total number of Frigates) then it would make sense to keep them separate but now at a confirmed 14 High end hulls and whatever the 31 ends up being it doesn't make sense, I mean even with the "trick" of sinking costs into the 23 upgrade (something the Admirals wanted to avoid when they designed the 23's), they are still too expensive for a full 1 for 1.

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        • #94
          Has any navy given any thought to an FFG escort being the weapons platform dealing with targets detected/selected etc by the DDG. It would save on duplication of sensor and weapon fit for escort purposes but pretty useless for indepedent operation.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by danno View Post
            Has any navy given any thought to an FFG escort being the weapons platform dealing with targets detected/selected etc by the DDG. It would save on duplication of sensor and weapon fit for escort purposes but pretty useless for indepedent operation.
            Isn't that what the Cooperative Engagement Capability is meant to help with?

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            • #96
              To the extent units have limited capability in their own right?

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              • #97
                Originally posted by danno View Post
                To the extent units have limited capability in their own right?
                I suppose it would come down to the engagement and the weapons fit, (for example what type of VLS and SAM they had anyway (and thus impacting cost)) from memory the 45's were once touted as going to get it as an upgrade but that got dropped for budgets I think.

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                • #98
                  We are where we are because of SDR mathematics. The Global combat ship, F26, was originally 13 hulls, but the costs for the package were reduced by the Strategic Defence Review to 8 F26 and make up the numbers by the 5 advanced OPV's. The proliferation of three new hull types, with different task suites, and many engineering prototype concepts in power and propulsion has led to a lot of falling between stools AND stop start budget allocations to keep builders on the start line for production some time soon!!

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                    We are where we are because of SDR mathematics. The Global combat ship, F26, was originally 13 hulls, but the costs for the package were reduced by the Strategic Defence Review to 8 F26 and make up the numbers by the 5 advanced OPV's. The proliferation of three new hull types, with different task suites, and many engineering prototype concepts in power and propulsion has led to a lot of falling between stools AND stop start budget allocations to keep builders on the start line for production some time soon!!
                    The Decision to go for the Batch 2's predates the 2015 SDR, and was made as the 26 wasn't signed off on for production in 2013 (and it's kind of hard to blame the 2015 Review given that the 26 design has been underway long before that ( and the issues regarding costs/spec had been flagged in the 2010 Review). The 2015 SDR instead created the 31 spec (which nobody knows anything about short of "cheaper than the 26"), it's just another false economy by the UK just as cutting the 45 numbers or the Astute delays.

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                    • Originally posted by danno View Post
                      Has any navy given any thought to an FFG escort being the weapons platform dealing with targets detected/selected etc by the DDG. It would save on duplication of sensor and weapon fit for escort purposes but pretty useless for indepedent operation.
                      The concept is unstable. If you build a ship designed as a weapons platform only, then you have to accept that it is somewhat disposable. If you can't live with that, then you start up-arming it for self-defence with adequate sensors and effectors. At that stage you've built a full-blown frigate with associated costs. Look at what happened with the LCS.

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                      • Surely a pure weapons problem platform is just a tasty high-value target?

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                        • F26 Build

                          Originally posted by Medsailor View Post
                          The concept is unstable. If you build a ship designed as a weapons platform only, then you have to accept that it is somewhat disposable. If you can't live with that, then you start up-arming it for self-defence with adequate sensors and effectors. At that stage you've built a full-blown frigate with associated costs. Look at what happened with the LCS.
                          According to BMOD printed rumours (Defence News) Letters have been issued to Senior officers appointed to oversee building of F 26 tonnages ( 3 ? ) to commence April 2017. The overall concept is 8 ships with 5 lesser ships making up a 13 ship fleet , maybe at least of equal speed for combined tasks.

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                          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                            According to BMOD printed rumours (Defence News) Letters have been issued to Senior officers appointed to oversee building of F 26 tonnages ( 3 ? ) to commence April 2017. The overall concept is 8 ships with 5 lesser ships making up a 13 ship fleet , maybe at least of equal speed for combined tasks.
                            Well they've already ordered the first set of 5" guns for them so it's likely within the next year, however I'd say they will be VERY lucky to get the first into service before the 23's start End of Lifing. As for what the spec of the 31's will be, right now it's far to early to guess what it might be as even the RN doesn't know what it wants, other than "Cheaper". The 31 is IMO a stupid decision that is another penny wise, pound foolish choice that the UK has become fond of doing.

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                            • Royal Naval Future

                              Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                              Well they've already ordered the first set of 5" guns for them so it's likely within the next year, however I'd say they will be VERY lucky to get the first into service before the 23's start End of Lifing. As for what the spec of the 31's will be, right now it's far to early to guess what it might be as even the RN doesn't know what it wants, other than "Cheaper". The 31 is IMO a stupid decision that is another penny wise, pound foolish choice that the UK has become fond of doing.
                              .

                              Between Strategic Reviews and it's real purpose of placating Budgeting theorists, they have arrived at the point of NO Fleet Air Arm combat aircraft or a dependable surface combat fleet. The peace time ability to police all oceans is questionable. Authorised strengths of Forces are not being met by many thousands. Cobbling together plans for future units has led to production failing to meet reliable standards and an ongoing dilution of capability and outfits, producing ships with little future or regard by those tasked to operate them.
                              Last edited by ancientmariner; 29 August 2016, 09:28.

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                                Navy News Facebook post of launch of new River Class
                                Last edited by Tempest; 31 August 2016, 23:38.

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