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  1. #1
    C/S Galloglass's Avatar
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    River class OPVs, NS, RN, etc

    The current "Rivers" will probably come to market in the future....."The three Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs) currently under construction will enter service as replacements for three of the four in-service OPVs. As announced in the Strategic Defence and Security Review [Cm9161], two further River Class OPVs will be built, resulting in a more modern and more capable fleet of up to six OPVs in the Royal Navy" ......
    These are relatively new ships and bearing in mind the great value for money that the "Peacocks" have been,all three could possibly be had for a song. Get them as "replacements" for the Peacocks instead of 2 more expensive "like for like" as envisaged.
    Attachment 8122

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    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    The rivers are similar in size, age and displacement to Roisin and Niamh and if the 30 year rule was applied, we'd be getting another 15 out of them. Different engine, but with the defence pact with the UK, spare should be easy to come by.

    I'm sure there are reasons against this that those more familiar with Naval affairs will point out, but if the price is right, and it's a three for two replacement, it would appear to be a good option.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglass View Post
    The current "Rivers" will probably come to market in the future....."The three Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs) currently under construction will enter service as replacements for three of the four in-service OPVs. As announced in the Strategic Defence and Security Review [Cm9161], two further River Class OPVs will be built, resulting in a more modern and more capable fleet of up to six OPVs in the Royal Navy" ......
    These are relatively new ships and bearing in mind the great value for money that the "Peacocks" have been,all three could possibly be had for a song. Get them as "replacements" for the Peacocks instead of 2 more expensive "like for like" as envisaged.
    Attachment 8122

    SDSR 2015 says up to 6 OPVs (there are 3 building and the SDSR says they will build another 2).

    But it doesn't matter as WP2015 says they will have "counter-mine and counter-IED capability".
    Last edited by DeV; 10th December 2015 at 22:05.

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    Ship acquisition

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    SDSR 2015 says up to 6 OPVs (there are 3 building and the SDSR says they will build another 2).

    But it doesn't matter as WP2015 says they will have "counter-mine and counter-IED capability".
    The WP is a political document and as such is subject to constraints, advantage, control, delay, and general hostage to fortune. The bottom line is that the Rivers , if on offer, can do most of what CPV's do except the speed. I say get all three with a shed load of spares and equip them with 30mm and FCS, plus a couple of 20mm, 12.5's. Get the RN Dockyard to do a, Good to Go, refit and paint job. It might add a few years of shelf life.

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    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    whats the advantage of the river class over ordering 3 new OPV's of same design as the beckett? is it to do with the timescale and life of the existing - to be replaced - vessels?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
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  8. #6
    C/S Galloglass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    whats the advantage of the river class over ordering 3 new OPV's of same design as the beckett? is it to do with the timescale and life of the existing - to be replaced - vessels?
    The advantage would be the cost Morpheus....These ships will be at "fire-sale" prices as the RNs replacement programme is being done for "political" rather than for "military" reasons. The RN only "bought out" their lease in 2012 for £29 millon.
    I would certainly be interested in them and their purchase (2 or 3) would "free-up" cash for our mythical MRV.

    The govt. wants "counter-mine and counter-IED capabilities" .....Well thats just dandy. I suppose we could buy a Lynx for the Rivers and go sub-hunting instead.
    Last edited by Galloglass; 11th December 2015 at 14:37.

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  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    I thought the replacements were to win the Scottish Referendum and to keep the Scottish ship builders happy.
    True Odin,
    The "purchase of replacements" was a political con.....BAE were to be paid circa £360 million to do exactly nothing (existing contractual obligations) They agreed to "develop" the new "Batch" which cost around £175 million in spurious design improvments (probably the actual cost of the OPVs) and to announce the £360 million as an "investment" in Scotland though little of it actually went there.
    The existing Rivers are absolutely sound and fit for purpose. I'd prefer the P60s.....but three(or 2) Rivers at a knock down price is a no-brainer in my opinion.........Then our MRV would look a real possibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    I thought the replacements were to win the Scottish Referendum and to keep the Scottish ship builders happy.
    They are also because the Type 26 project seems stuck off the rails (hence why the order is reduced to 8 with a follow on "cheaper" version to maintain the 13 hulls (how "cheap" BAE can make a project is another question). Under the agreement made when the deals for the Carriers were being made, the UK Govenment agree a demand level that the yards could expect, had the 26 design been ready/within costs then they would have been ordered, however as they still can't get everything within the price range agree the order keeps getting pushed back, but the UK still has to pay BAE, so instead of just giving them the money, they ordered the Batch 2's.

  13. #9
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Let's on forget the real reason the new Rivers are being built, if they weren't the contract had the RN over a barrel in that they would have to pay the yards for not placing orders

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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    yeah, real no brainer, the day of buying RN cast offs should be long gone, we are no longer desperate to get hulls in the water, CPVs were bought in desperation.

    NS need to hold out on new builds. no more bargain basement stuff!
    Well hp there is nothing wrong with a bargain but if you think the CPVs " were bought in desperation" what is the point of newbuild "like for like" replacements? An all OPV fleet seems the preferred choice on the poll above and the Rivers have another 20 years in them. Two P60s would be much better (€150 million) but not compared 3 Rivers at "bargain basement" prices.( say you got the lot for £40 million?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglass View Post
    Well hp there is nothing wrong with a bargain but if you think the CPVs " were bought in desperation" what is the point of newbuild "like for like" replacements? An all OPV fleet seems the preferred choice on the poll above and the Rivers have another 20 years in them. Two P60s would be much better (€150 million) but not compared 3 Rivers at "bargain basement" prices.( say you got the lot for £40 million?)
    Why do you talk in circles so?

  17. #12
    C/S Galloglass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Why do you talk in circles so?
    Seems to be a requirment na grohmiti. Hoping to catch my tail soon. Surprised that there seems little enough interest here in the Rivers but each to his own.

  18. #13
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    I think there's a fair chance the Batch 1 RIVER Class will go to Eastern Europe.

    They do the job very well but the class has evolved and its time to bring into service more capable platforms.



    Re the RN build of Type 26 - they were only ever getting 8 ASW versions - which are much more costly.

    That's what they need to deploy a carrier group and protect the Nuclear deterrent.

    The other 5 general purpose frigates will be more suited to extended constabulary roles such as the Horn of Africa etc.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

  19. #14
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    I saw the River Class HMS Clyde on the BBC programme "An Island Parish" about the Falklands, she was going into Stanley to take part in a service to remember the fallen from the war there, she had a Sea KIng helicopter on the deck, never knew she could carry one that size.
    Last edited by Brian McGrath; 16th December 2015 at 15:11.

  20. #15
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    Clyde is the exception. The others don't have that advantage.

  21. #16
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    "We have already looked at the Rivers on this thread (there is a good chance the RN will be keeping them)"

    If the British Navy decides to keep them it would be a very sensible decision, they could establish a proper (EEZ Protection Squadron) based in Scotland. I'm sure the Scottish govt. would appreciate the gesture.
    However I don't think the Admirals are very interested in OPVs and if they become available 2-3 Rivers in the hand are worth more than 2 CPVs in a bush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglass View Post
    "We have already looked at the Rivers on this thread (there is a good chance the RN will be keeping them)"

    If the British Navy decides to keep them it would be a very sensible decision, they could establish a proper (EEZ Protection Squadron) based in Scotland. I'm sure the Scottish govt. would appreciate the gesture.
    However I don't think the Admirals are very interested in OPVs and if they become available 2-3 Rivers in the hand are worth more than 2 CPVs in a bush.
    Given the Scots have their own couple of hulls for Fisheries I wonder what their reaction would be exactly?

  23. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Given the Scots have their own couple of hulls for Fisheries I wonder what their reaction would be exactly?
    Hi Sparky,
    As the SNP is guaranteed to win the election in May I think they would jump at it. Their Defence policy includes "One naval squadron to secure Scotland’s maritime interests and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and contribute to joint capability with partners in Scotland’s geographical neighbourhood."
    Their initial goal is 2 Type 23 Frigates and an assortment of OPVs and smaller vessels operated by 2000 sailors supported by 200 Naval Reserve. The OPVs are built on the Clyde anyway so "servicing" is on hand and the "RN" might be found willing if the Scottish Govt was prepared to contribute directly to funding. Though if they go far down that road they would probably want the squadron transferred to Marine Scotland.
    Last edited by Galloglass; 2nd January 2016 at 15:32.

  24. #19
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglass View Post
    Hi Sparky,
    As the SNP is guaranteed to win the election in May I think they would jump at it. Their Defence policy includes "One naval squadron to secure Scotland’s maritime interests and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and contribute to joint capability with partners in Scotland’s geographical neighbourhood."
    Their initial goal is 2 Type 23 Frigates and an assortment of OPVs and smaller vessels operated by 2000 sailors supported by 200 Naval Reserve. The OPVs are built on the Clyde anyway so "servicing" is on hand and the "RN" might be found willing if the Scottish Govt was prepared to contribute directly to funding. Though if they go far down that road they would probably want the squadron transferred to Marine Scotland.
    The defence policy you have cited above is based around the notion of Scottish independence...and that's not likely to happen anytime soon.

    Back in the real world...the RN already have a Squadron of minesweepers based at Faslane.

    It will soon be the sole RN Submarine base...11 Submarines will be based there.

    There is a type 23 Frigate based there semi-permanently to work with the Vanguard Class Submarines.

    And a load of Royal Marine Commandos.

    An awful lot more people than 2000 sailors plus 200 reservists.

    As Sparky rightly says...today the Scottish Government operates its own fleet of 3 fishery protection vessels.

    They operate out of Leith on the East Coast.

    Royal Navy Fishery Protection vessels don't operate in Scottish waters.

    The three existing River Class vessels will be sold...the days of OPV's in the Royal Navy without flight decks appear to be gone.

    And the RN is facing a manning crisis as they begin to bring the new carriers into service...even if they wanted to keep the Batch 1 Rivers they won't have the people to crew them.

    My moneys on them going to Eastern Europe.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  26. #20
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Remember why the new RN OPVs are being built.

    If they weren't, because the yards had them over a barrel in the last contract, the RN was going to hand over the readies (£££) for any period that they weren't building ships for the RN.
    Last edited by DeV; 2nd January 2016 at 17:43.

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  28. #21
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Remember why the new RN OPVs are being built.

    If they weren't, because the yards had them over a barrel in the last contract, the RN was going to hand over the readies (£££) for any period that they weren't building ships for the RN.
    And remember too that the Royal Navy wanted and indeed needed these more capable platforms.

    Something borne out in the 2015 SDSR...they've ordered an extra two hulls giving five in build.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

  29. #22
    C/S Galloglass's Avatar
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    Hi Spider

    I'm aware of all of the above ....Sparky just asked what I thought the "Scottish govt"(SNP) might think if given the option. (Before or after Indy would make little difference to them)......I'm inclined to agree that 3 might head East to a NATO country. Possible missed opportunity for NS if they do in my opinion.
    Last edited by Galloglass; 2nd January 2016 at 19:58.

  30. #23
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    Missed opportunity to buy something our neighbours don't want.

    I have a used mattress I'm throwing out too. Do you want it?

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  32. #24
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Cheaper than frigates
    True.

    But The Admiralty are still getting 13 of those as well.

    As a minimum...their aspiration is to push the escort fleet up beyond 19 hulls again by 2030.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

  33. #25
    C/S Galloglass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Missed opportunity to buy something our neighbours don't want.

    I have a used mattress I'm throwing out too. Do you want it?
    At the right price? Absolutely.....They seem good enough for a NATO country right now. They have ordered 5 (virtually identical) Batch 2 OPVs. Heres a link you might have a look at. http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogs...questions.html

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