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River class OPVs, NS, RN, etc

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  • #16
    "We have already looked at the Rivers on this thread (there is a good chance the RN will be keeping them)"

    If the British Navy decides to keep them it would be a very sensible decision, they could establish a proper (EEZ Protection Squadron) based in Scotland. I'm sure the Scottish govt. would appreciate the gesture.
    However I don't think the Admirals are very interested in OPVs and if they become available 2-3 Rivers in the hand are worth more than 2 CPVs in a bush.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
      "We have already looked at the Rivers on this thread (there is a good chance the RN will be keeping them)"

      If the British Navy decides to keep them it would be a very sensible decision, they could establish a proper (EEZ Protection Squadron) based in Scotland. I'm sure the Scottish govt. would appreciate the gesture.
      However I don't think the Admirals are very interested in OPVs and if they become available 2-3 Rivers in the hand are worth more than 2 CPVs in a bush.
      Given the Scots have their own couple of hulls for Fisheries I wonder what their reaction would be exactly?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
        Given the Scots have their own couple of hulls for Fisheries I wonder what their reaction would be exactly?
        Hi Sparky,
        As the SNP is guaranteed to win the election in May I think they would jump at it. Their Defence policy includes "One naval squadron to secure Scotland’s maritime interests and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and contribute to joint capability with partners in Scotland’s geographical neighbourhood."
        Their initial goal is 2 Type 23 Frigates and an assortment of OPVs and smaller vessels operated by 2000 sailors supported by 200 Naval Reserve. The OPVs are built on the Clyde anyway so "servicing" is on hand and the "RN" might be found willing if the Scottish Govt was prepared to contribute directly to funding. Though if they go far down that road they would probably want the squadron transferred to Marine Scotland.
        Last edited by Galloglass; 2 January 2016, 16:32.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
          Hi Sparky,
          As the SNP is guaranteed to win the election in May I think they would jump at it. Their Defence policy includes "One naval squadron to secure Scotland’s maritime interests and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and contribute to joint capability with partners in Scotland’s geographical neighbourhood."
          Their initial goal is 2 Type 23 Frigates and an assortment of OPVs and smaller vessels operated by 2000 sailors supported by 200 Naval Reserve. The OPVs are built on the Clyde anyway so "servicing" is on hand and the "RN" might be found willing if the Scottish Govt was prepared to contribute directly to funding. Though if they go far down that road they would probably want the squadron transferred to Marine Scotland.
          The defence policy you have cited above is based around the notion of Scottish independence...and that's not likely to happen anytime soon.

          Back in the real world...the RN already have a Squadron of minesweepers based at Faslane.

          It will soon be the sole RN Submarine base...11 Submarines will be based there.

          There is a type 23 Frigate based there semi-permanently to work with the Vanguard Class Submarines.

          And a load of Royal Marine Commandos.

          An awful lot more people than 2000 sailors plus 200 reservists.

          As Sparky rightly says...today the Scottish Government operates its own fleet of 3 fishery protection vessels.

          They operate out of Leith on the East Coast.

          Royal Navy Fishery Protection vessels don't operate in Scottish waters.

          The three existing River Class vessels will be sold...the days of OPV's in the Royal Navy without flight decks appear to be gone.

          And the RN is facing a manning crisis as they begin to bring the new carriers into service...even if they wanted to keep the Batch 1 Rivers they won't have the people to crew them.

          My moneys on them going to Eastern Europe.
          'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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          • #20
            Remember why the new RN OPVs are being built.

            If they weren't, because the yards had them over a barrel in the last contract, the RN was going to hand over the readies (£££) for any period that they weren't building ships for the RN.
            Last edited by DeV; 2 January 2016, 18:43.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by DeV View Post
              Remember why the new RN OPVs are being built.

              If they weren't, because the yards had them over a barrel in the last contract, the RN was going to hand over the readies (£££) for any period that they weren't building ships for the RN.
              And remember too that the Royal Navy wanted and indeed needed these more capable platforms.

              Something borne out in the 2015 SDSR...they've ordered an extra two hulls giving five in build.
              'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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              • #22
                Hi Spider

                I'm aware of all of the above ....Sparky just asked what I thought the "Scottish govt"(SNP) might think if given the option. (Before or after Indy would make little difference to them)......I'm inclined to agree that 3 might head East to a NATO country. Possible missed opportunity for NS if they do in my opinion.
                Last edited by Galloglass; 2 January 2016, 20:58.

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                • #23
                  Missed opportunity to buy something our neighbours don't want.

                  I have a used mattress I'm throwing out too. Do you want it?
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    Cheaper than frigates
                    True.

                    But The Admiralty are still getting 13 of those as well.

                    As a minimum...their aspiration is to push the escort fleet up beyond 19 hulls again by 2030.
                    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                      Missed opportunity to buy something our neighbours don't want.

                      I have a used mattress I'm throwing out too. Do you want it?
                      At the right price? Absolutely.....They seem good enough for a NATO country right now. They have ordered 5 (virtually identical) Batch 2 OPVs. Heres a link you might have a look at. http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogs...questions.html

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
                        At the right price? Absolutely.....They seem good enough for a NATO country right now. They have ordered 5 (virtually identical) Batch 2 OPVs. Heres a link you might have a look at. http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogs...questions.html
                        They are ordering more because its either that or just give the money straight to BAE for nothing, they don't have a choice under agreements and the inability of both sides to get the 26 design into construction. Doesn't mean that its the best value for money.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by spider View Post
                          True.

                          But The Admiralty are still getting 13 of those as well.

                          As a minimum...their aspiration is to push the escort fleet up beyond 19 hulls again by 2030.
                          No they are getting 8 and "something else" will happen in another 10+ years (at which point the SSBN build will be eating the budget, most likely a new SSN design is on the way with even more costs, the 45 might be going to Mark 41's and BMD, all costing a chunk of money). Given the post Cold War British Government policy, I'm betting a future Review is going to throw out the same line as the 45's in that "new technology means we don't need as many hulls". Even if the follow on "Lite Frigate" does get ordered how likely is it to be in service before 2030? Since the 26's won't be in service till the 2020's now?

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                          • #28
                            Sparky, the 2015 SDSR has stated that the RN will receive 8 ASW frigates plus 5 GP frigates as a hill for hull replacement of the T23. That makes sense given that only 8 T23 have been or will be upgraded to the latest sonar fit. No-one ever expected 13 T26 ASW variants.

                            Your speculation that that will not happen is at this stage just that. Speculation.

                            We could also speculate that given a resurgent threat from Russia, and the current rumblings going on in the Far East that we may see the RN expanded further at the next SDSR, which is due in 2020. But there's no point, we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

                            Meantime the RN continues to plan for a frigate fleet of 13 hulls, a one for one replacement of T23, with the aspiration to increase the number of frigate hills by the 2030s.

                            That's what the SDSR says...that'll be what the RN and HM Government are planning for...that's what I assume will happen until I hear otherwise.

                            If I'm still above ground I'll have hung u my boots by then and will be merely an interested observer 😃
                            'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by spider View Post
                              Sparky, the 2015 SDSR has stated that the RN will receive 8 ASW frigates plus 5 GP frigates as a hill for hull replacement of the T23. That makes sense given that only 8 T23 have been or will be upgraded to the latest sonar fit. No-one ever expected 13 T26 ASW variants.

                              Your speculation that that will not happen is at this stage just that. Speculation.

                              We could also speculate that given a resurgent threat from Russia, and the current rumblings going on in the Far East that we may see the RN expanded further at the next SDSR, which is due in 2020. But there's no point, we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

                              Meantime the RN continues to plan for a frigate fleet of 13 hulls, a one for one replacement of T23, with the aspiration to increase the number of frigate hills by the 2030s.

                              That's what the SDSR says...that'll be what the RN and HM Government are planning for...that's what I assume will happen until I hear otherwise.

                              If I'm still above ground I'll have hung u my boots by then and will be merely an interested observer 😃
                              I know what the Review says, I'm just deeply doubtful about it happening, how "cheap" is this "Light Frigate" going to be, since the 26's were meant to be around £400 million with export potential and we know how that turned out to be. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't previous Review's have higher numbers of SSN's and a near 1 for 1 replacement of the 42's with the 45's which then got cut in slices quietly? Like I said, most likely the Lite Frigate design is going to have to be done when the RN ship budget is already going to be under pressure and certainly not going to be in service before 2030, let alone enlarging the numbers beyond 19 by 2030. Certainly nobody expected 13 ASW 26's, but when it was planned to have exports and "affordability" the other five were going to be GP of the same hull, I wonder when we get to number 8 of the 26 with the design work done and the yard experienced with the design how the unit price will compare to the cost of the First of the Lite Frigates?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                                They are ordering more because its either that or just give the money straight to BAE for nothing, they don't have a choice under agreements and the inability of both sides to get the 26 design into construction. Doesn't mean that its the best value for money.
                                Never said the NEW orders were "value for money" the price is bogus. If the British wish to sell the Rivers (Batch 1) they will be cheap and great value though.

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