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Thread: Pilatus PC-9M

  1. #126
    Captain Jetjock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    As things stand ,in AC hands, it is well able to shred stationary passive targets in benign conditions.
    They are just another example of tokenism in the DF. Just like never deployed obsolete light tanks and current NS weapons fit out. You better not be engaging anything that can shoot back.

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  3. #127
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    Was having a look on the Web, but couldn't find any updates on the build state or delivery schedule of the new PC-9. Any takers? Thanks for the update.

    P.S. I asked this question ages ago, but when the PC-9 was introduced, there was mention in an An Cosantoir of hiring a target towing Learjet for air to air practice. I'm aware it's a PC-9, together with it's limitations, but did this ever get any further? Or might it go further in future?

  4. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    I asked this question ages ago, but when the PC-9 was introduced, there was mention in an An Cosantoir of hiring a target towing Learjet for air to air practice. I'm aware it's a PC-9, together with it's limitations, but did this ever get any further? Or might it go further in future?
    With 1ADR no longer using the Bofors, is there any need for a target-towing capability for ground-to-air practice? For air-to-air, the purchase of a target-towing pod slung on a PC9 would seem to be the more realistic and cheaper alternative? But the Donners clearly prefer to do the bare minimum with an airframe for it's life in service and not give any worthwhile time to it's military potential. If they even had a scintilla of credibility they'd have floated the idea of a mid-life upgrade to add an air-to-air missile capability. Give these people Grippens and they'd be using them for top cover for SAR

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  6. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    Was having a look on the Web, but couldn't find any updates on the build state or delivery schedule of the new PC-9. Any takers? Thanks for the update.

    P.S. I asked this question ages ago, but when the PC-9 was introduced, there was mention in an An Cosantoir of hiring a target towing Learjet for air to air practice. I'm aware it's a PC-9, together with it's limitations, but did this ever get any further? Or might it go further in future?
    https://flyinginireland.com/2016/11/...ase-confirmed/

    This year

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  8. #130
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    Thanks for linking to that article DeV, I'd seen it before. However, I was wondering if month had been set for it to arrive in country or what it's current production state is?

  9. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    Thanks for linking to that article DeV, I'd seen it before. However, I was wondering if month had been set for it to arrive in country or what it's current production state is?
    An article from last November. The author who has sadly since passed away, did say previously that the new aircraft would be an ex Mexican AF aircraft which was subsequently confirmed not to be the case. The only reliable source for your answer is the Dept but it is not unreasonable to expect delivery some time this year.

  10. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    An article from last November. The author who has sadly since passed away, did say previously that the new aircraft would be an ex Mexican AF aircraft which was subsequently confirmed not to be the case. The only reliable source for your answer is the Dept but it is not unreasonable to expect delivery some time this year.
    My understanding is
    The Swiss embargoed Aircraft being build for Mexico at there factory, because Mexico used Swiss supplied aircraft in a attack on someone.
    We are getting a aircraft off the assemble line.??

  11. #133
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    From a short video of the fuselage getting rolled out in Switzerland taken from boards.ie

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2057721952

    Thanks to GVHOT on boards.ie. So it's a new airframe off the assembly line then, nice new car smell lol. Safe flying when she gets into the air.

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  13. #134
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    and will be used in EVERY dail question time, as a "F*** OFF", answer , showing the governments "committment" (". to the AC and the DF from now until kingdom come.... instead of it being seen as a much delayed attrition replacement following the loss of 265 :(
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  15. #135
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    Moneyball for COIN combat air support

    https://warontherocks.com/2017/04/pl...tack-aircraft/

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  17. #136
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    Borrowed from the Pilatus Spotters web site.Attachment 8436

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  19. #137
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    Thanks for posting Claudel. Unfortunately I can't view this image, for anyone in the same boat, I think this is the one you're linking to

    * http://www.spotting-pilatus-aircraft...l#&gid=1&pid=1

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  21. #138
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    Looking forward to seeing the new PC9 touchdown. Will the new one have any mods that will make their way through the rest of the fleet, or is a life-extension/upgrade under consideration at some point? E.g. new cockpit systems, NVG compatible cockpit, or recce (e.g. SCAR pod)/laser ranger type pods? Although with the ISTAR concept of ops behind the PC12, a camera toting PC9 is probably pretty old school.

    For better or worse, I could see a direct replacement for the PC9 in a training role being pushed out a few years as the oldest will be 21 in 2025, so I'd say pushing the out of service date on 4 - 5 years could then be on the cards. IMHO.

    For an interesting take on a more operational role for the PC9's replacement (provided it's not a PC21...), paul g wrote a good post a while back

    * http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...l=1#post439376
    Last edited by meridian; 30th May 2017 at 23:36.

  22. #139
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    269 is arriving with the current avionics suite and cockpit. The airframe has some small modifications to it eg access doors and NLG and MLG changes. The powerplant and prop are to the current build specs, and as a new build has a 20 year life. The original 7 airframe's life is limited to 2024, an upgrade is possible and life extension probable depending on the fatigue index of each airframe come 2024.
    Last edited by Claudel Hopson; 31st May 2017 at 22:12.

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  24. #140
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    From Facebook.

    Today marked a very special day for the Flying Training School and the Air Corps. Two flight instructors flew '269' from the Pilatus factory in Switzerland to its new home in Baldonnel where our technical staff received the aircraft for its first post-flight inspection in Ireland. The aircraft brings the PC-9M fleet to eight. These aircraft are used in a variety of roles, primarily cadet pilot training. 269 is unique with its underwing fuel tanks, greatly increasing the aircraft range and endurance
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  26. #141
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    I suppose it would be nuts to ask whether the older plans could be fitted with tanks as well? Is the plumbing connections fitted?

  27. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I suppose it would be nuts to ask whether the older plans could be fitted with tanks as well? Is the plumbing connections fitted?
    I'd wager the pylons and tanks are these very ones and will soon find their way back to Pilatus:

    https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6859015

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  29. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    Looking forward to seeing the new PC9 touchdown. Will the new one have any mods that will make their way through the rest of the fleet, or is a life-extension/upgrade under consideration at some point? E.g. new cockpit systems, NVG compatible cockpit, or recce (e.g. SCAR pod)/laser ranger type pods? Although with the ISTAR concept of ops behind the PC12, a camera toting PC9 is probably pretty old school.

    For better or worse, I could see a direct replacement for the PC9 in a training role being pushed out a few years as the oldest will be 21 in 2025, so I'd say pushing the out of service date on 4 - 5 years could then be on the cards. IMHO.

    For an interesting take on a more operational role for the PC9's replacement (provided it's not a PC21...), paul g wrote a good post a while back

    * http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...l=1#post439376
    Leo’s pronouncement on neutrality this month was so interesting and will feed into the PC-9 replacement, he essentially said that Ireland would not join any military alliance, but that we were not neutral when it comes to issues like terrorism and human rights. In other words, EU defence will have two strands, there will be those who understand that Russia poses a threat to Western democracy and thus will co-operate to contain it, and there will be those who will co-operate to carry out peace support and HADR missions in regions like the middle east and Africa; some countries will opt to do both. Ireland will be in the second group, which poses problems as it means that with America disengaged, and other countries defence spending focused on containing Russia we will have to be more expeditionary. It means we’re going to have to work more with Germany, Austria the Nordics, Malta, Spain, Italy and Portugal

    So, if we look at the need for fixed wing aircraft to replace the PC9 that will have a utility in joint operations, the main expeditionary units we have are the ranger wing and ISTAR company, and of real importance to both is the ability to work with strike aircraft in the air to ground role delivering precision munitions. The standoff reconnaissance platoon in istar company for example is geared towards delivering artillery and mortar fire, (no secret its capabilities were published in an cosantoir September 2012) .In future to meet the requirements of Battlegroup exercises and deployments they’ll have to train to the same standard as other European armies, and train extensively in coordinating with aircraft in delivering precision guidance munitions and thus will have to be more like the Joint fire support teams deployed by the German army (heer). It’s also an important part of the ranger’s conventional role as in Chad. Before shinners and FF scream about UN missions only, have a look at un peace keeping, where attack helicopters are increasingly used (Mali and DRC to name but two) and precision munitions are deployed; the UN have even published a manual about the utility of special forces in peace support operations.

    Secondly the Air defence requirement existed when the PC9 were conceived in 1998 are totally different. The biggest target in Ireland in 2025 will be the old Jacobs factory in Tallaght and places like it because of the massive number of Data centres being built here, hybrid warfare means that destroying one of these will mean international chaos, there is a recognisable need therefore for improved air defence to guard against these threats.

    So, the way I see it there are five options.

    (A) Admit that the Bluffwaffe’s argument since 1956 that we need Vampires/Fougas/PC9 to train pilots so if there is an emergency then we have the pilots and only need to buy the planes made sense when the hawker hunter was the height of sophistication but is total bollix today. If we still want the state to train pilots for the airlines that are no longer national flag carriers but part of a multi-billion-euro multi national business then we should look at replacing the PC9 with a very limited Grob G115 type aircraft that is an elementary trainer. Believe it or not least likely option come 2025, but was what the Department wanted in 2003.
    (B) Buy 8 PC 21 to replace the PC9. A totally feasible option and one that has a lot of merit. The PC21 would allow the bluffwaffe to continue to train its own pilots to a high standard. Retains the existing air defence ability. But the real capability shifts it offers which is going to be more important is the improved software. They designed it from the beginning to act as a trainer for Joint Fires Support Team training. It might not be able to carry the weapons, but it is able to simulate during exercises the delivery of a range of precision guided ordnance guided by JFST on the ground, and would revolutionise the ability of the army to train for overseas missions. Alternatively, the M345HET shown at Paris might be a contender.
    (C) Train fast jet pilots through MOU with the UK or in Sweden. Reconstitute light strike squadron and replace the PC 9 with 8 M346FA, the light strike version of the family, just shown in Paris. The Italians are sure to buy some to replace their AMX and Austria are likely follow suit to replace its Eurofighters. A lot of F35 operators will want something less expensive to run for less intensive combat missions it’s got seven hardpoints, and is fitted from the start with a Radar, the grifo 346, which offers a capability that is in line with realistic air defence needs for the state. It’s got far more capability than the PC21 in simulating JFST training in delivering air to ground ordnances. Buy a limited number of sidewinder missiles and 30 mm cannon pods for the air policing role, along with fuel tanks to extend its range. A viable alternative around 2025 might be a similarly equipped version of the Saab/Boeing T-X.
    (D) An enhanced light strike squadron with the ability to deploy a detachment overseas on crisis management tasks. Stick with the M346FA, but instead buy 12, and develop the ability to deploy overseas a force of 4 aircraft during an international crisis. Buy 8 Reccelite Reconnaissance Pods, 8 Targeting pods and DAS. Along with sidewinders and cannon pods arm them with Brimstone missiles, SDB and GBU 12 500lb bombs; build a munitions stock sufficient to sustain two combat missions per day by two aircraft for a 14 day period. Google “Italian air force AMX Crisis management” and see how the from the Balkans to Afghanistan the AMX has been the true workhorse of the Italian air force, use the proposed PESCO arrangement to build a crisis management capability in conjunction with another air force. . Even within limited Rules of Engagement that Irish politicians are likely to impose it offers a real capability to the state in overseas operations in all but the very high intensity combat and the most sophisticated Air defence systems. Think again of Chad, only possible because of French Mirages overhead with similar reconnaissance capabilities to the Reccelite pod.
    (E) Contribute to a pan European fighter squadron capable of engaging in high intensity warfare. Bite the bullet and buy a squadron of Gripens and work with the Eastern Europeans in contributing through EU defence by engaging in a PESCO arrangement to assist in manning a joint squadron as a sign of pan European resolve. The most expensive and the politically the least likely option

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  31. #144
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    Interesting Options,

    In reality the PC-21 is only marginally better then the PC-9 for Air Policing, its main design brief is to make it a better Lead in Fighter Trainer for 4th and 5th Gen Fighter Aircraft.

    Did Light Strike Squadron ever exist to be reconstituted?? My understanding is that it was really only ever the AFTS!

    Lets be somewhat realistic we aren't getting Front Line Fighter Aircraft even at the M346 level..

    A truck is as much of a threat to a large data centre as a hijacked aircraft and arguably has an even better terror effect..

    IMHO the AC should Bin the Idea of Armed Fixed Wing Aircraft and focus on some type of Advanced Armed Reece Heli, provides a credible conventional(precision munition) Armed Element for the AC both at home and realistically overseas.
    Fixed wing should Focus on Transport and support to the rest of the DF and in Particular some reasonable overseas airlift capability.

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  33. #145
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    The last time I checked there was no armed version of the PC21. The Swiss do not like selling aircraft which can be armed. The PC9M was very much an exception.

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  35. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Interesting Options,

    In reality the PC-21 is only marginally better then the PC-9 for Air Policing, its main design brief is to make it a better Lead in Fighter Trainer for 4th and 5th Gen Fighter Aircraft.

    Did Light Strike Squadron ever exist to be reconstituted?? My understanding is that it was really only ever the AFTS!

    Lets be somewhat realistic we aren't getting Front Line Fighter Aircraft even at the M346 level..

    A truck is as much of a threat to a large data centre as a hijacked aircraft and arguably has an even better terror effect..

    IMHO the AC should Bin the Idea of Armed Fixed Wing Aircraft and focus on some type of Advanced Armed Reece Heli, provides a credible conventional(precision munition) Armed Element for the AC both at home and realistically overseas.
    Fixed wing should Focus on Transport and support to the rest of the DF and in Particular some reasonable overseas airlift capability.

    M346FA is well within budget, and offers real potential. Training the army ISTAR Company and Ranger wing would be so much easier with that sort of capability and if would offer a real air policing capability.

    Agree on 302 squadron which after all is ISTAR and training. I like the look of the H145M the germans have ordered, a detachment of four overseas in support of ISTAR company would be nice, but would drag the thread off title. .

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  37. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The last time I checked there was no armed version of the PC21. The Swiss do not like selling aircraft which can be armed. The PC9M was very much an exception.
    The weapons for the PC-9 were integrated by an Austrian Company because of the Swiss rules.

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  39. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    M346FA is well within budget..
    Not sure I agree, the 66m spent on the PC-9's was the biggest ever expenditure on the AC, and we ended up with a training aeroplane. Without a credible threat its hard to justify an even bigger expenditure on a higher end training Aircraft albeit with Light Strike Potential. It would still not offer any credible intercept capability.

    Funds are always going to be limited therefore whatever is purchased must offer far more credible capability in its chosen role.

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  41. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Not sure I agree, the 66m spent on the PC-9's was the biggest ever expenditure on the AC, and we ended up with a training aeroplane. Without a credible threat its hard to justify an even bigger expenditure on a higher end training Aircraft albeit with Light Strike Potential. It would still not offer any credible intercept capability.

    Funds are always going to be limited therefore whatever is purchased must offer far more credible capability in its chosen role.
    if the other choice is leaving the eu then they'll find the money. Nobody apart from that ****wit Ed horgan writing in todays times and his ilk would like to see that.

    troops in istar company's stand off recce platoon will in the future have to be trained in delivering precision guided munitions from aircraft, so will the ranger wing; that requires a plane in the M346FA class.

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  43. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    if the other choice is leaving the eu then they'll find the money. Nobody apart from that ****wit Ed horgan writing in todays times and his ilk would like to see that.

    troops in istar company's stand off recce platoon will in the future have to be trained in delivering precision guided munitions from aircraft, so will the ranger wing; that requires a plane in the M346FA class.
    I imagine the training does not require a live aircraft, simulation will tick 90% of the box's. Then send the troops to a partner nation to get the last 10%.

    You are advocating purchasing a limited aircraft in limited numbers for the purpose of training and maybe some very limited overseas role, I think that sort of money would be better spent on achievable military capability.

    At the moment what is the AC's conventional military role? Enhancing and expanding that should be the focus..

    HEMS and Fish Patrols are great but don't really move the AC forward.

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