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Thread: Pilatus PC-9M

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaque'ammer View Post
    The super tucano is intended to be cheap CAS for poorer nations. We're barely getting the Air Corps overseas so let's maybe not buy more expensive planes we won't even use
    Indeed, after all out soldiers and air crew don't really matter, do they?
    That's why we buy rich mans taxis and paint them green!
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    Indeed, after all out soldiers and air crew don't really matter, do they?
    That's why we buy rich mans taxis and paint them green!
    he has a point - if the PC-9M's aren't going to be used, then what is the point squandering money - thats sorely needed elsewhere in the DF - on raising the number of waste-of-space airframes by one?

    what would the (as a wild arse guess..) €2m a used PC-9M will cost buy? a 5.56mm minimi LMG for every infantry section for 3 Inf Bn's? everyone going overseas getting a desert/arid uniform? each section in a 3 Inf Bn's getting a new 7.62mm DMR with optics?

    boring stuff like boots that aren't held together with electrical tape on night marches in the Wicklow Mountains?

    how much fuel, blank and live would €2m buy if it just went straight into the training budget?

    some of these look like sound investments, one of them is not...

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  4. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    he has a point - if the PC-9M's aren't going to be used, then what is the point squandering money - thats sorely needed elsewhere in the DF - on raising the number of waste-of-space airframes by one?

    what would the (as a wild arse guess..) €2m a used PC-9M will cost buy? a 5.56mm minimi LMG for every infantry section for 3 Inf Bn's? everyone going overseas getting a desert/arid uniform? each section in a 3 Inf Bn's getting a new 7.62mm DMR with optics?

    boring stuff like boots that aren't held together with electrical tape on night marches in the Wicklow Mountains?

    how much fuel, blank and live would €2m buy if it just went straight into the training budget?

    some of these look like sound investments, one of them is not...

    Think of the aer corps officers, won't somebody think of the officers!!!!
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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  6. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    he has a point - if the PC-9M's aren't going to be used, then what is the point squandering money - thats sorely needed elsewhere in the DF - on raising the number of waste-of-space airframes by one?

    what would the (as a wild arse guess..) €2m a used PC-9M will cost buy? a 5.56mm minimi LMG for every infantry section for 3 Inf Bn's? everyone going overseas getting a desert/arid uniform? each section in a 3 Inf Bn's getting a new 7.62mm DMR with optics?

    boring stuff like boots that aren't held together with electrical tape on night marches in the Wicklow Mountains?

    how much fuel, blank and live would €2m buy if it just went straight into the training budget?

    some of these look like sound investments, one of them is not...
    The same logic could say why spend under 1bn a year on defence when it could do so much for Health, Housing etc.
    The aircraft are being used for training pilots. They do that pretty well.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  8. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    The same logic could say why spend under 1bn a year on defence when it could do so much for Health, Housing etc.
    The aircraft are being used for training pilots. They do that pretty well.
    and are they all - bar the ones being fixed - being flown from 9-5 everyday, or are a goodly proportion sitting around doing nothing for most of the time?

    does the AC need another airframe because it simply can't work the current airframes any harder without either time travel or those airframes falling out of the sky, or does it need another airframe so it can do a better display once a year?

  9. #31
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    They can always train pilots (Officers and Enlisted) on new airframes such as this for the same or less money.

    http://www.uav-stol.com/

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    To be a pilot you have to fly in the aircraft. Otherwise you are merely the operator.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  12. #33
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    Not according to the FAA and IAA

  13. #34
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    What's the pathway like for a recently winged AC Lt to get a CPL/ATPL & become an airbus/Boeing driver? Are they many thousands of euro better off than the ppl licence holder who's being flying a Cessna around from grassy airstrips? Off topic I know mods move if necessary I'm just curious as to what the process is like.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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    From the point of view of maintenance of hull numbers this is a good move. Leave the "the money would be better spent on X" arguments aside and see the bigger picture.

    The gradual erosion of active airframe numbers has been continual over the last two decades. Once you drop numbers and accept it as the norm, it's very hard to convince bean counters to even replace aircraft let alone increase fleet sizes. With newer aircraft being less maintenance intensive downsizing fleets past the point of tokenism has been the accepted practice. It would be nice to see a reversal of the trend for once.

    The do more with less bullshit just means aircraft get worn out quicker and replacement (with inevitably less numbers) becomes a necessity sooner than when operating at full fleet numbers. The AC always expected to lose hulls- it's a training aircraft. 26x serial numbers for attrition replacements were intentionally unfilled accordingly.
    Last edited by Jetjock; 3rd November 2016 at 16:13.

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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    From the point of view of maintenance of hull numbers this is a good move. Leave the "the money would be better spent on X" arguments aside and see the bigger picture.

    The gradual erosion of active airframe numbers has been continual over the last two decades. Once you drop numbers and accept it as the norm, it's very hard to convince bean counters to even replace aircraft let alone increase fleet sizes. With newer aircraft being less maintenance intensive downsizing fleets past the point of tokenism has been the accepted practice. It would be nice to see a reversal of the trend for once.

    The do more with less bullshit just means aircraft get worn out quicker and replacement (with inevitably less numbers) becomes a necessity sooner than when operating at full fleet numbers. The AC always expected to lose hulls- it's a training aircraft. 26x serial numbers for attrition replacements were intentionally unfilled accordingly.
    if i recall correctly the PC-9M flying hours figures for the last decade showed that the AC was flying each airframe for about a third of the time that the orginal purchace was based on - that instead of the type getting to the 25/30 year point before being shagged out (though, as you say, attrition is an issue), the fleet would get to ninety years service before being shagged out.

    in that circumstance, how can anyone say that another airframe is needed? given the flying hours they actually do they could put two or three in storage as attrition replacements and the fleet would happily get to 2035...

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    if i recall correctly the PC-9M flying hours figures for the last decade showed that the AC was flying each airframe for about a third of the time that the orginal purchace was based on - that instead of the type getting to the 25/30 year point before being shagged out (though, as you say, attrition is an issue), the fleet would get to ninety years service before being shagged out.

    in that circumstance, how can anyone say that another airframe is needed? given the flying hours they actually do they could put two or three in storage as attrition replacements and the fleet would happily get to 2035...
    Like all arms of the defence forces, the Air Corps experienced a curtailment in flying hours as a cost saving measure during the recession. (the same one that reduced Naval Patrol days). This was not factored in when the aircraft were ordered.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  19. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    What's the pathway like for a recently winged AC Lt to get a CPL/ATPL & become an airbus/Boeing driver? Are they many thousands of euro better off than the ppl licence holder who's being flying a Cessna around from grassy airstrips? Off topic I know mods move if necessary I'm just curious as to what the process is like.
    They study to ATPL theory standard not sure if they do the exams of if licences are recognised

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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Like all arms of the defence forces, the Air Corps experienced a curtailment in flying hours as a cost saving measure during the recession. (the same one that reduced Naval Patrol days). This was not factored in when the aircraft were ordered.
    The reduction in flying hours /patrol days was/is not anywhere in the region of 66% .

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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    The reduction in flying hours /patrol days was/is not anywhere in the region of 66% .
    What was it then?
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  22. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    What's the pathway like for a recently winged AC Lt to get a CPL/ATPL & become an airbus/Boeing driver? Are they many thousands of euro better off than the ppl licence holder who's being flying a Cessna around from grassy airstrips? Off topic I know mods move if necessary I'm just curious as to what the process is like.
    You need between 30 and 50 thousand Euro to get your type certification, after you finish your first 12 years in the Air Corps, assuming you have not blotted your copybook or got your ass killed...
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
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  23. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    What was it then?
    10%

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  25. #43
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    I usually get banned for 1 word answers. thats not even a word.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  27. #44
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    So Aer Corp buy a decent trainer and plenty of them, and people are moaning.

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  29. #45
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    I guess because they are trainers with no operational role, and there is no intention of buying anything for them to train pilots for. If we ever did buy or lease fast air, it would probably make more sense to have the fighter training conducted overseas anyway.
    Last edited by expat01; 4th November 2016 at 05:37.

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  31. #46
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    Ideally, I imagine, a squadron of trainers plus a squadron of jets would mean less training hours required on the jets and lower the cost of operating them. Our hovertank air corps would be well served with four PC-21s with cockpits configured like a gripen, and a squadron of gripens. And it's only "hovertank" because of defence budget, not economy.

  32. #47
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    The PC9M is a great intermediate trainer, and that is the problem. It is normally part of a training system for fixed wing pilots flying jets. Is has no role for the Training of helicopter pilots for example.
    It does have a very limited air combat role but it has only the performance of an early Spitfire which was obsolete by 1942. As for CAS, it only can fire dumm rockets. It has no sensors at all.
    They are only a face saving measure to say we can defend our airspace. Do we really need them, most likely no. But then again we could ask why do we have 105 light guns?

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    So we are debating buying jet fighters at a cost of €100's million to conduct less than 5 interceptions a year and train the pilots overseas.

    So what how many hours are the aircraft and pilots? 100 hrs ?

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  35. #49
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    Which is a good argument for not having trainers with no role except to fly them for the sake of flying them. By that measure every minute a pilatus spends in the air is a waste of budget.
    And yes, I think we should be seriously debating spending millions on jets for five intercepts a year.
    Not spending it without getting a squadron of someone else's air force to permanently guard our airspace is criminally insane.
    Last edited by expat01; 4th November 2016 at 09:19.

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  37. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    I usually get banned for 1 word answers. thats not even a word.
    But it answers your question.

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