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Thread: Pilatus PC-9M

  1. #76
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    If the establishment is understrength on Lts, then they will be slotted in. If not, civvy street beckons. It all depends on what the slots are. If a guy came in with his heart set on being a pilot and fails and is then told that the best slot available is minding apprentices and recruits, he might just pull the handle and leave and take his chances in civvy street. Military service is not for everyone and quite often, it's better if the decision to quit is made early.

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    So the Air Corps is still hiring officers primarily with flying potential secondary.
    Do the guys in the RAF end up as navigators or weapons officers if not pilot material ?
    Last edited by sofa; 8th November 2016 at 20:07.

  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Do the guys in the RAF end up as navigators or weapons officers if not pilot material ?
    Cant think of much scope for this with the demise of the Nimrod & Shackleton etc.

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  6. #79
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    Some do; others are regraded as non-FJ aircrew and end up in the back of ELINT aircraft or on missile stations or ATC or anywhere that they can fit them. Some fail the FJ route and get regraded to heli or cargo pilot aircrew, but you have to get past the Hawk and Tucano stage to get there. If you get chopped as a pilot for FJ, it's not the end of the world, especially if you make it to Nav or WSO or EWO. Quite a few quit for civvy airlines where they are well regarded because of the calibre of training and often make very good commercial pilots.

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  8. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Do the guys in the RAF end up as navigators or weapons officers if not pilot material ?
    I know someone who got chopped as a FJ pilot, then chopped as a Nav, then chopped as a Fighter Controller, and ended up as an Intelligence officer...

    I also know of someone who was chopped as a FJ pilot and the RAF refused to offer them any other slot, so away they went.

    It all depends on the qualities of the individual and the needs of the service. You can be completely shit as aircrew and still be an asset, and you can be not quite good enough to be FJ aircrew and be a complete chod.

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  10. #81
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    Every RAF aircraft like a Hercules or the Voyagers will have a Navigator and a Flight engineer; the AWACs will have Electronic Warfare Officers and so will other ELINT assets like the Sentinel and any UAVs will have Int Officers examining photo intel and real time imaging, so there are slots for non-pilot Officer aircrew. Also, there is nothing stopping them applying again for things like Army heli slots.

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  12. #82
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    According to RAF site the Voyagers have 2 pilots, 1 AAR op and 8 cabin crew. The AAR op may well have pilot background but hard to see it arising for the cabin crew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Every RAF aircraft like a Hercules or the Voyagers will have a Navigator and a Flight engineer; the AWACs will have Electronic Warfare Officers and so will other ELINT assets like the Sentinel and any UAVs will have Int Officers examining photo intel and real time imaging, so there are slots for non-pilot Officer aircrew. Also, there is nothing stopping them applying again for things like Army heli slots.
    Both Voyager and all current RAF Hercs (J model) are two flight crew. Not a Flt Eng or Navigator to be found. The E 3 AWACS has both, being a 707 variant.

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  15. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    I know someone who got chopped as a FJ pilot, then chopped as a Nav, then chopped as a Fighter Controller, and ended up as an Intelligence officer...

    I also know of someone who was chopped as a FJ pilot and the RAF refused to offer them any other slot, so away they went.

    It all depends on the qualities of the individual and the needs of the service. You can be completely shit as aircrew and still be an asset, and you can be not quite good enough to be FJ aircrew and be a complete chod.
    There's one or two knocking around the Royal Artillery is there not? I met one lad at Larkatraz in 2010 who was chopped as FJ but decided that UAVs were the way forward.

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  17. #85
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    Thing is, the RAF have plenty of non flying officer appointments.
    The Air Corps does not have that luxury.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  19. #86
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    DAIL ANSWERS Wednesday 9th November 2016

    Air Corps Equipment

    209. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if adequate updating and replacement of military aircraft is ongoing with particular reference to the needs for the Air Corps to meet best international standards; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34024/16]

    Minister of State at the Department of Defence (Deputy Paul Kehoe): My priority as Minister with Responsibility for Defence is to ensure that the operational capability of the Army, Air Corps and Naval Service, is maintained to the greatest extent possible so as to enable the Defence Forces to carry out their roles as assigned by Government as set out on the White Paper on Defence.

    In that regard, the acquisition of new equipment and equipment upgrades for the Defence Forces remains a clear focus for me. Going forward, the equipment priorities for the Army, Air Corps and the Naval Service will be considered in the context of the lifetime of the White Paper.

    The future equipment priorities for the Air Corps are set out in the White Paper, which recognises that there are several new and or enhanced platforms to be procured for the Air Corps. Future capability requirements for the Air Corps are being considered as part of the rigorous capability development and equipment planning priorities process as envisaged in the White Paper. This will define ongoing and future equipment priorities having regard to the evolving security environment and available funding.

    In the context of the Air Corps fleet, this will include the replacement of the Cessna fleet with three larger aircraft suitably equipped for Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance tasks. The preparatory work for the tender competition has begun within the Defence organisation, and it is expected that the competition will be initiated by the end of this year. The two CASA 235s Maritime Patrol Aircraft are due for replacement in 2019. The CASAs will be replaced with consideration of their replacement with larger more capable aircraft to enhance maritime surveillance and to provide a greater degree of utility for transport and cargo carrying tasks.

    The existing Pilatus PC9 aircraft are not due for replacement until 2025. It should be noted that a decision was made recently to replace a PC-9M aircraft which was written off following a fatal crash in 2009. The replacement PC-9M aircraft scheduled for delivery next year from Pilatus Aircraft in Switzerland at a cost of €5m plus VAT will bring the fleet up to 8 and will assist in a required increase in pilot training in the Air Corps.

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  21. #87
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    New build by the sound of it.

  22. #88
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    Not a bad price if to the same spec

    We purchased 8 for €60m (€7.5m each obviously that included spares, simulators, training etc)

  23. #89
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    I would have thought €5 million sounds more like a refurbished aircraft, and given the projected out of service date of 2025 (I think that's what was said by Minister Coveney last year), a refurbished aircraft would seem to make more sense.

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  25. #90
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    It's possible it's a refurbished aircraft, but it may also be a deal based on the replacement of the whole fleet in the future, it would make a sort of sense.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  26. #91
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    Did someone mention Cessna replacement?

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  28. #92
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    Refurbished Mexican (PC9M out of production)

    http://flyinginireland.com/2016/11/p...ase-confirmed/

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  30. #93
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    Jim has one thing wrong: The PC-9M is still in production. Royal Jordanian AF have 9 on order as of last year.
    Last edited by Jetjock; 13th November 2016 at 20:41.

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  32. #94
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    Just to confirm, it is one of the leased Mexican pair, returned no doubt, because they have a wall to build....
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  33. #95
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    they returned them because they got Beech T6 II instead.

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  35. #96
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    We are not getting the Mexican PC-9M, it isn't for sale. Jordan have cancelled their PC-9M order and are getting 8 PC-21 instead.

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  37. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudel Hopson View Post
    We are not getting the Mexican PC-9M, it isn't for sale. Jordan have cancelled their PC-9M order and are getting 8 PC-21 instead.
    My mistake for listening to an officer, what is the origin of this specie so?
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  39. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    My mistake for listening to an officer, what is the origin of this specie so?
    How do we use the Pilatus? Does it have a Close Air Support role or can it be fitted for such a role? I see US forces are over the moon with the capability of the Tucano, both range and loiter time and weapons loads. Why do we just require aircraft to train fliers, perhaps the Air Corps and other Services should maximise all equipment to add to the Military cutting edge.

  40. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    How do we use the Pilatus? Does it have a Close Air Support role or can it be fitted for such a role? I see US forces are over the moon with the capability of the Tucano, both range and loiter time and weapons loads. Why do we just require aircraft to train fliers, perhaps the Air Corps and other Services should maximise all equipment to add to the Military cutting edge.
    because the role of the AC is not to provide aviation support to the rest of the DF and carry out stand alone airpower doctrine, its to be a publicly funded flying school for people who want to fly airliners?

    the PC-9M is not CAS capable and can't be without lots of money being spent on its surveilance and targeting systems, its weapons systems and its DAS. it would also need a rebuild to put some armour around the engine and Cockpit, and it might need a more powerful engine to carry all that around...

    to put the PC-9M's 'capabilities' in perspectives, i'm a NATO qualified JTAC - a Forward Air Controller - and i've undertaken that role in Iraq and Afghanistan. a FW aircraft with no designation system, firing unslaved .50 pod-mounted guns and unguided 2.75 inch rockets would not have been allowed to engage a ground target of any type, regardless of how far it was from any friendlies or CIVPOP, under any circumstances, even in the worst days of Helmand Province in 2006.

    apparently however, it would be fine to use it outside Monaghan should PIRA re-emerge...

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  42. #100
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    That's it in a nutshell. Either fight a modern war or fight the 1942 war. The PC-9s are tokenism as combat aircraft....the IRA can come and go as they please, as always.

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