Royal Navy Type 31

[Sparky42]

The Caribbean guard ship was normally a type 42 destroyer. Then they started deploying RFAs..... because the numbers of fighting ships is so low

Well it was the 42 because by the end of it's life it was just a gun and helicopter for all intents, what was it (or was it) when you were talking about during the Cold War period?

[Orion]

Think the Type 23s did WIGS in the '90s and this suggests they still do

http://en.mercopress.com/2015/12/16/...r-in-gibraltar

[DeV]

Well it was the 42 because by the end of it's life it was just a gun and helicopter for all intents, what was it (or was it) when you were talking about during the Cold War period?

Think it was during the 00s

The type 42 was still in service

[Sparky42]

Think it was during the 00s

The type 42 was still in service

Oh they were still in service but the Sea Dart wasn't (I seem to remember one time when they arrived in South Africa with dummy missiles) as it had run out of service life, leaving an "Air Defence" Destroyer that couldn't actually defend.

[ancientmariner]

Error in Mercopress. HMS Lancaster sailed through Panama Canal, Down the west Coast of South America and around CAPE HORN not Good Hope.

[spider]

The Caribbean guard ship was normally a type 42 destroyer. Then they started deploying RFAs..... because the numbers of fighting ships is so low

Yes a T42 would have been just the ticket in the Caribbean just now!

[DeV]

Yes a T42 would have been just the ticket in the Caribbean just now!

Very true

[ancientmariner]

The last RN Type 42 Destroyer hauled down her flag in 2013 after 40 years service for the type. She was an Austerity design shortened from the actual requirement to save money. In all two were lost in combat and two lost through accidents. Some redesign provided improvements in war fighting , one shot down a missile heading for a US Navy ship during the Gulf War. Later Batch had a strengthening beam welded either side along her amidships adding 50 tonnes DW and increasing her width by 2 Ft.
She was a child of Political cuts requiring resuscitation by the professionals, and a certain amount of making do.

[DeV]

The last RN Type 42 Destroyer hauled down her flag in 2013 after 40 years service for the type. She was an Austerity design shortened from the actual requirement to save money. In all two were lost in combat and two lost through accidents. Some redesign provided improvements in war fighting , one shot down a missile heading for a US Navy ship during the Gulf War. Later Batch had a strengthening beam welded either side along her amidships adding 50 tonnes DW and increasing her width by 2 Ft.
She was a child of Political cuts requiring resuscitation by the professionals, and a certain amount of making do.

History could well repeat itself

[Herald]

Looks like only one of either Venator or Arrowhead will even make it to the bidding process, not both.

http://www.janes.com/article/74374/b...-31e-programme

[Sparky42]

Looks like only one of either Venator or Arrowhead will even make it to the bidding process, not both.

http://www.janes.com/article/74374/b...-31e-programme

Given that BAe have pretty much publicly stated they have feck all interest in the project and that it shouldn't go ahead anyway I'd rule their options out as well. Of what's left it's this team up (suggestions that the Venator has more work done on the design and more RN support).

[Sparky42]

So we have BAE going in with Cammell Laird with "Leander" which is going to be a stretched Cutlass design, while reports that BMT and Babcock might be ditching the Venator and building some of it's aspects into the Arrowhead design?

Also reports in the Times today that Chile and Brazil have got some notice that there might be 2 23's coming available next year with the other 3 by 2023 (along with the LPD's on sale as well). With the manpower and budget issues I can see some political logic for that but dropping the surface fleet to that level is going to be "interesting", and puts more pressure on the 31 getting through the development cycle on time.

[ancientmariner]

The RN disposal of ships is curious. The fleet of type 23's were scheduled to be in service until 2023 for HMS Argyll, ranging out to 2035 for last of class HMS St.Albans. New Build projects seem to hasten disposal of ships with credible life and function remaining. Is it that Industry is pressurising warship development and using louder voices to influence introduction of newer designs into service prematurely. As pointed out, newer vessels and technology, cause reduction in fleet size by trying to balance frugal budgets.

[Sparky42]

The RN disposal of ships is curious. The fleet of type 23's were scheduled to be in service until 2023 for HMS Argyll, ranging out to 2035 for last of class HMS St.Albans. New Build projects seem to hasten disposal of ships with credible life and function remaining. Is it that Industry is pressurising warship development and using louder voices to influence introduction of newer designs into service prematurely. As pointed out, newer vessels and technology, cause reduction in fleet size by trying to balance frugal budgets.

I don't think it's "curious" I think the MOD has a giant blackhole once more in their budgets and have cut so deep that there's nothing left to cut but bone. Coupled with the manpower crisis the RN is already facing and I suppose at least might be thinking "well we can't man them, they cost money in harbour and they've only got a few years left, cut now and pray that the budgets don't get worse". Given the history of cuts the RN and the other services have had it's not the best choice, but I think they are out of "good options" at this stage short of significant budget changes in the UK Defence budget.

[hptmurphy]

I Think the RN has realised that running ships into the ground is not the better option as costs of keeping them serviceable long term don't add up especially when there are new build s in the wings.

The River Class replacements are on the way and they need the crews ....but it would seem the replacements will be doing a lot of the work of the Type 23s over seas until the Type 31 (e) comes on stream .

The export version is big OPV crossed with low range frigate.

[Sparky42]

I Think the RN has realised that running ships into the ground is not the better option as costs of keeping them serviceable long term don't add up especially when there are new build s in the wings.

The River Class replacements are on the way and they need the crews ....but it would seem the replacements will be doing a lot of the work of the Type 23s over seas until the Type 31 (e) comes on stream .

The export version is big OPV crossed with low range frigate.

Well given the 23's are already beyond their design lifespan already, I don't particularly see why other than the blackhole and manpower issues as to why the 23's would have to go before their replacements are even designed let alone first steel.

As for the Rivers, thought their manpower is coming from the Batch 1's to an extent? And with Brexit I wouldn't assume that they would be available for Overseas if the UK/EU have Fisheries disputes.

[DeV]

As for the Rivers, thought their manpower is coming from the Batch 1's to an extent? And with Brexit I wouldn't assume that they would be available for Overseas if the UK/EU have Fisheries disputes.

Don't think EU have much to worry about

http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/25/b...ime=1508948979

[na grohmití]

Bloody czechoslovakians...

[Sparky42]

Well maybe it's a sign he's hoping for a Velvet Divorce?

[na grohmití]

Well maybe it's a sign he's hoping for a Velvet Divorce?

Scotland get the farmland, England and Wales get the industry and neo-nazis? One uses the Euro, the other uses the GB£? Scotlands economy eventually passing out that of England and Wales?

[hptmurphy]

Well given the 23's are already beyond their design lifespan already, I don't particularly see why other than the blackhole and manpower issues as to why the 23's would have to go before their replacements are even designed let alone first steel.

Answered your own question in two....money and people.......the 2/3rds that make up navies. No point in having ships if you can't run them or an them!

If your navy is losing high end people day after day you have to plan around it, you have to consolidate and prioritize.People often fail to realize how ships run, its not about putting ,say,50 random people into a hull and tell them to go and sail...

Of that 50 ,40 will need high end skills to make the thing work.

Now as a navy over all if you are losing 10 people per week, you are on the back foot by half way through the week and now bear in mind you are already 5 years behind the curve.

So in order to keep the gears grinding you keep the most reliable and effective ships at sea, scale down where you can and reduce costs.

[ancientmariner]

According to sifted data, the Type 23's, in the order built, are due for replacement over a 12 year span starting with Argyle in 2023 and ending with St. Albans in 2035. It seems at least half this fleet are frontline capable for the next decade at least.Training envelopes to AB is about 2 years, focus on trained manpower output, and recruit accordingly. Recruit Techs from 3rd level institutions and Universities and commission as many young Tech NCO's as possible with as few promotional ceilings as possible to create career incentives. Lastly manpower restrictions for cost saving has the same effect as China's one Child policy--you run out of people.