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  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Untrue, the Russian submarine force is about to become more effective that it ever has been a new class of Frigate / Corvettes under construction and a huge modernisation plan across the board.

    Within a few years the Russian Navy will be the dominant force in the North Atlantic.
    Really?
    Have they managed to replace the Ukrainian Powerplants/gearboxes for their surface ships yet? As to more subs, perhaps, perhaps not and either way they will still be a far smaller force than the Cold War. And that presumes that Russia can sustain it's military spending, given the economic issues it has, and the continued industrial issues, added to which with the NATO nations moving towards the 2% making them even more outnumbered.

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  3. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Really?
    Have they managed to replace the Ukrainian Powerplants/gearboxes for their surface ships yet? As to more subs, perhaps, perhaps not and either way they will still be a far smaller force than the Cold War. And that presumes that Russia can sustain it's military spending, given the economic issues it has, and the continued industrial issues, added to which with the NATO nations moving towards the 2% making them even more outnumbered.
    Another question is will the PLAN increase its operational tempo in the Atlantic/Med?..

  4. #278
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    Horgan, Is this the lad who made the grand jester for peace, by handing back his medals, uniform, but held on to the pension book.
    The same looper who was minutes away from getting himself into the Guinness books of records for being the first OnE officer to order a bayonet charge during the Ballsbridge embassy riots.
    The same plonker who recommended only arming the Mowags with a point five
    Last edited by sofa; 13th September 2017 at 00:09.

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  6. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Untrue, the Russian submarine force is about to become more effective that it ever has been a new class of Frigate / Corvettes under construction and a huge modernisation plan across the board.

    Within a few years the Russian Navy will be the dominant force in the North Atlantic.
    .... until the USS South Dakota and its Block IV Virginia friends arrive. The USN is already developing "4th" generation subs with the Ohio replacement.

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  8. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    While it's certainly true that the Russian navy isn't what it was (and is unlikely to return to that), you do have to balance that with the fact that the UK (and RN) have been actively talking up moving towards the Indian/Pacific Ocean area post Brexit as well, at which point you run into a PLAN force that is growing in both numbers and tech. The other issue of course is with the ease of getting weapons now, just how much a "light unit" can do with out is open for question now (risks of Anti ship missiles, suicide boats, potentially cheap mines).

    Course the other fact that comes to my mind is that even if this "bare bones" Type 31 does end up at 250m a unit, what will the MRV end up as?
    As anybody who has read the newspapers in the last year will know the Brits are totally delusional about post March 2019, they can't sustain operations in the Pacific, that's why they retreated east of suez in the 1960s.

    Going back to the arrowhead, when the MRV Comes on stream it will be different from what they planned in when they tendered for the epv back in 2007, it might very well be the LE brexit class as it will have to reflect the political situation, where the EU will have deepened its crisis management capabilities, and Ireland will have to contribute capabilities at sea, (after all we are an island).

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  10. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    .... until the USS South Dakota and its Block IV Virginia friends arrive. The USN is already developing "4th" generation subs with the Ohio replacement.
    The USN is so stuck for Frigates at the moment they are considering recommissioning Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates

    The USN is already developing "4th" generation subs with the Ohio replacement.
    The Russians have another Typhoon back in the water, this out weights all the RN missile boats.

    Another question is will the PLAN increase its operational tempo in the Atlantic/Med?
    ..

    They have one carrier in the water with limited potential, but they well have another one within 3 months , the Russians and the Chinese are back on talking terms about ship builds etc. so watch this space.

    be a far smaller force than the Cold War.
    Bigger doesn't mean better,

    Have they managed to replace the Ukrainian Powerplants/gearboxes for their surface ships yet?
    As I said, Chinese and Russian relations could be the solution to this.

    And that presumes that Russia can sustain it's military spending, given the economic issues it has, and the continued industrial issues,
    As longer as Europe needs what Russia exports in the form of Gas and oil they can and will. Putin will not allow the navy to fall back to the place it was again.
    Just visiting

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  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The USN is so stuck for Frigates at the moment they are considering recommissioning Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates



    The Russians have another Typhoon back in the water, this out weights all the RN missile boats.

    ..

    They have one carrier in the water with limited potential, but they well have another one within 3 months , the Russians and the Chinese are back on talking terms about ship builds etc. so watch this space.



    Bigger doesn't mean better,



    As I said, Chinese and Russian relations could be the solution to this.



    As longer as Europe needs what Russia exports in the form of Gas and oil they can and will. Putin will not allow the navy to fall back to the place it was again.
    The US always keeps old hardware , including Naval and key Merchant Ships , in a floating reserve , to cover global exigencies. We remember the BB's being used in the Vietnam war. I would be worried about the Russo/Chinese hand holding as both countries are anxious to see US influence withdrawn from the Korean Peninsula, Japan, Guam etc. The PRK Nuclear/Missile developments probably pleases Putin and Mr. Ping as reasons why they should go home.
    The PLAN future includes building up to 6 Aircraft Carriers which has to have Global aspirations as a reason. It follows that all Powers will maintain balance or superiority by New Builds.

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The USN is so stuck for Frigates at the moment they are considering recommissioning Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates
    No they are looking at the Perry's because Trump has announced that they are going back up to a 300 hull plus navy and they know that they can't meet that with the US shipbuilding (and because the LCS's turned out to be the utter disaster many predicted). Whether or not some of them actually end up being reactivated is another question entirely. I mean there's also a suggestion of bringing the Kitty Hawk back into service even though a) her material state is "utter shite" and b) the USN doesn't have the Carrier Wings to deploy. But whatever the man child wants.

    The Russians have another Typhoon back in the water, this out weights all the RN missile boats.
    And? Forgive me if I'm not overly concerned about a Cold War hull being reactivated for a limited period until it's reactors need to be shut down (more over it's an SSBN, they weren't the threat to the North Atlantic in the Cold War), the Russian ability to replace their SSN/SSBN hulls is not anything like what it once was and at this stage most are at least 1 generation behind the USN/RN SSNs (and arguable France once their new SSN's get built)

    As I said, Chinese and Russian relations could be the solution to this.
    Yes it could, however that assumes that Russia will be happy ending up as China's pawn, which given the disparity is the only way Sino-Russian relations will end up.

    As longer as Europe needs what Russia exports in the form of Gas and oil they can and will. Putin will not allow the navy to fall back to the place it was again.
    You are aware of the actual size of the Russian economy right? As in behind Italy, internally it has massive issues (from burning through Foreign Reserves, to runs on Banks, to massive shortages and cuts), even with selling petro chemicals to Europe, there's a finite level of investment they can afford to make. If by 2025 the EU NATO nations hit the 2% spending, Russia can forget about staying level (hell Germany alone will out spend Russia if it went to 2%). Already the Russian Finance/Defence Departments have made clear that the defence spending needs to be cut post 2020. And that doesn't even get into the Vapourware that Russia announces all the time, I mean by now from Vlads statements they should have parity with the USN in CVN's and yet that hasn't happened, they plan for a new Strategic Stealth bomber by mid 2020's even with the limitations they have (so not likely to happen), the Space Program is denying a death with massive issues...

    That doesn't mean they aren't capable of offence actions and going after weak points that have developed in NATO doctrine, but I don't see them being in a position to threaten the North Atlantic in any serious shape compared to the Cold War.
    Last edited by Sparky42; 13th September 2017 at 14:38.

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    As anybody who has read the newspapers in the last year will know the Brits are totally delusional about post March 2019, they can't sustain operations in the Pacific, that's why they retreated east of suez in the 1960s.

    Going back to the arrowhead, when the MRV Comes on stream it will be different from what they planned in when they tendered for the epv back in 2007, it might very well be the LE brexit class as it will have to reflect the political situation, where the EU will have deepened its crisis management capabilities, and Ireland will have to contribute capabilities at sea, (after all we are an island).
    And delusions haven't resulted in military actions/deployments before?

    In terms of the MRV and any future EU plans, if that were the case as I've argued before we should actually be engaging with the others to figure out what we can bring to the table, however I can't shake the feeling that instead we are going to end up with something along the "Light Frigate" one of replacement for Eithne that doesn't really add much to either our capabilities or any joint operations.

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The USN is so stuck for Frigates at the moment they are considering recommissioning Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates

    The Russians have another Typhoon back in the water, this out weights all the RN missile boats.
    I do disagree with your claim that in a few years the Russians will dominate the North Atlantic and the reply above does not deal with the fact that Block IV Virginias and Columbia's are literally 1-2 generations ahead in acoustic and electromagnetic management than Typhoon/Borei and Akula/Yasen's - let alone the fact that the Russian's have nothing remotely as capable as P-8A nor the four CARSTRKGRU based out of Norfolk. The North Atlantic is an USN Lake and that is unlikely to be changed whatever you may hear on RT or read in Sputnik news.

    The possible OHP recall is just eight vessels and they are not needed or wanted in the North Atlantic. It will be an interim measure and what is likely is that FFG(X) will emerge as an intermediate size surface combatant as outlined here:

    http://snagfilms-a.akamaihd.net/d7/e...02418r2300.pdf

    Another export rival to the Type 31 / Type 26

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  17. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    Another export rival to the Type 31 / Type 26
    Think that RUSI article also left out the two European "light Frigate" programs already in motion from both the French and the Italians (the FTI and PPA respectively)

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  19. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Think that RUSI article also left out the two European "light Frigate" programs already in motion from both the French and the Italians (the FTI and PPA respectively)
    They are at Fincantieri looking at FREMM

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/20...KHulXA.twitter

  20. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    They are at Fincantieri looking at FREMM

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/20...KHulXA.twitter
    I still wonder what exactly will get picked for the FFG(X), I would have thought the US NIH issue would still be in play even with the restrictions they have in their own industry.

  21. #289
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    No they are looking at the Perry's because Trump has announced that they are going back up to a 300 hull plus navy and they know that they can't meet that with the US shipbuilding (and because the LCS's turned out to be the utter disaster many predicted).
    Hence they have no Frigate class vessel available and are looking to reactivate older ships, regardless of the numbers of hulls, frigates are part of a battle group with a defined function and Destroyers are bigger and more expensive to build and run.

    The North Atlantic is an USN Lake and that is unlikely to be changed whatever you may hear on RT or read in Sputnik news.
    I'm not taking the argument from the Russian side , merely reiterating what the RN are using for their argument to at least sustain hull numbers to protect the North Atlantic.

    That doesn't mean they aren't capable of offence actions and going after weak points that have developed in NATO doctrine, but I don't see them being in a position to threaten the North Atlantic in any serious shape compared to the Cold War.
    And if the RN don't have the capacity to hold up their end of the NATO commitment in the North Atlantic the Russians will have free reign in waters they previously tread carefully in.

    The P 8s in RAF service will be severely limited in range and don't have the capacity to refuel from existing RAF tankers........hardly ideal!

    I would be worried about the Russo/Chinese hand holding as both countries are anxious to see US influence withdrawn from the Korean Peninsula, Japan, Guam etc.
    And this to my mind will result in the US transferring assest from the East to West coats depleting further whats available in the Atlantic , with no back fill from the RN available
    Just visiting

  22. #290
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    I'm in the Army, and not really attuned to the naval side of things as much as I should be, but aren't the RN in the process of bringing into service two new aircraft carriers, building as we speak a new class of SSN's, about to start building a new class of SSBN's, building a new class of ASW Frigates, and planning to build a new class of GP Frigates...plus new RFA's...plus a G5 VSTOL fixed wing fighter bomber...

    I'd hardly say the oul Brits are behind the curve Murph...

    They're spending £178 Bn on re-equipping the RN
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  24. #291
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    but aren't the RN in the process of bringing into service two new aircraft carriers, building as we speak a new class of SSN's, about to start building a new class of SSBN's, building a new class of ASW Frigates, and planning to build a new class of GP Frigates...plus new RFA's...plus a G5 VSTOL fixed wing fighter bomber...
    The RN have 22 vessels including the P2000 University Training boats in service, just about to offload HMS Ocean, no Fixed wing Maritime air assets, no ship capable of operating them for another two minimum and a shortage of man power that prevents them from putting a Type 45 destroyer to sea, of which they have only six and even that type have been hampered by the lack of suitable missile fits.

    Yeah I reckon the Russkies are shitting them selves alright........
    Just visiting

  25. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Yeah I reckon the Russkies are shitting them selves alright........
    Yeah cause the Russians have no material issues what so ever...

  26. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The RN have 22 vessels including the P2000 University Training boats in service, just about to offload HMS Ocean, no Fixed wing Maritime air assets, no ship capable of operating them for another two minimum and a shortage of man power that prevents them from putting a Type 45 destroyer to sea, of which they have only six and even that type have been hampered by the lack of suitable missile fits.

    Yeah I reckon the Russkies are shitting them selves alright........
    Think you're a bit out on your figures there Mate.

    We've been round this bouy before you and i... You completely dismiss the RN and its capabilities...ignore the fact that its in the middle of its largest shipbuilding programme in my living memory...and don't seem to understand that the equipment they are bringing into service is ultimately going to help to make the world a better place. Or maybe £178 Bn worth of ships and aircraft isn't enough to impress you?

    At least we agree on one thing...if I was Captain of a Russian submarine I would be shitting myself in case an Astute class SSN was sitting on my pipe. Quite impressive pieces of machinery by all accounts.

    Sometimes I think the reason the Royal Navy constantly gets bashed on here is...that its the Royal Navy.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The RN have 22 vessels including the P2000 University Training boats in service, just about to offload HMS Ocean, no Fixed wing Maritime air assets, no ship capable of operating them for another two minimum and a shortage of man power that prevents them from putting a Type 45 destroyer to sea, of which they have only six and even that type have been hampered by the lack of suitable missile fits.

    Yeah I reckon the Russkies are shitting them selves alright........
    Given that the Russian Navy only leaves port in order to break down, and the rest of the time gives itself cancer, I'm inclined to be a little sanguine about the impending threat that this monster of the sea poses...

    Russian announcements of the modernisation/expansion of the fleet happen every two years or so - they've been happening since the 1990's - yet almost nothing comes to fruition. If I had a new Frigate for every time the Russians have said that in 10 years time they'll have new 4 carriers, 30 new escorts, 10 new SSN's and will have swept the USN from the Atlantic, I could line them up and walk to New York without getting my feet wet.

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  30. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Hence they have no Frigate class vessel available and are looking to reactivate older ships, regardless of the numbers of hulls, frigates are part of a battle group with a defined function and Destroyers are bigger and more expensive to build and run.
    They are building the FFGX which will be at least 20 vessels. They may bring 8 OHP(s back in the interim and the NSC's of the coastguard are no slugs in a gap filler role.

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    I'm not taking the argument from the Russian side , merely reiterating what the RN are using for their argument to at least sustain hull numbers to protect the North Atlantic.
    The RN have to use everything in the political spin doctor book to get their masters to listen to them which as we know does not happen too often.

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    And if the RN don't have the capacity to hold up their end of the NATO commitment in the North Atlantic the Russians will have free reign in waters they previously tread carefully in.
    The RN will uphold their end of the bargain as will a very well equipped enabling contributions from Norway and Denmark.

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The P 8s in RAF service will be severely limited in range and don't have the capacity to refuel from existing RAF tankers........hardly ideal!
    Contrary to online misinformation the Voyagers can be retrofitted for the Aerial Refuelling Boom System and have looked at what OZ does - all that lacks is funding. The RAAF outfitted the KC-30 with both USAF and USN refueling solutions. The P-8A is far from being limited in range - unrefueled 10.75 hours endurance at 500+kts but what matters is what it can do in that time and distance in the BAMS role that nothing comes close. The MH-370 hunt busted the range myth.

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    And this to my mind will result in the US transferring assest from the East to West coats depleting further whats available in the Atlantic , with no back fill from the RN available
    The pivot had to happened as the Asia-Pacific is geo-strategically and economically more important than Europe to the US thus the 60%-40% weighting. Following the Obama defence austerity years the US defence budget is being increased again. The UK will be able to generate a CSG and 11 SSN/SSBN's that is a headache alone for anyone like Putin and yet fractional of what the USN brings to the party in the Atlantic.

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  32. #296
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    The RN is tying up ships alongside because they can't man their ever decreasing fleet

  33. #297
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    That's not unique to the RN.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  35. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    Think you're a bit out on your figures there Mate.

    We've been round this bouy before you and i... You completely dismiss the RN and its capabilities...ignore the fact that its in the middle of its largest shipbuilding programme in my living memory...and don't seem to understand that the equipment they are bringing into service is ultimately going to help to make the world a better place. Or maybe £178 Bn worth of ships and aircraft isn't enough to impress you?

    At least we agree on one thing...if I was Captain of a Russian submarine I would be shitting myself in case an Astute class SSN was sitting on my pipe. Quite impressive pieces of machinery by all accounts.

    Sometimes I think the reason the Royal Navy constantly gets bashed on here is...that its the Royal Navy.
    I'm not bashing the RN at all, what I am concerned about is where successive British governments have forced cuts on what was once the best fleet in the world with no credible fleet replacement strategy.

    I have always been a fan of the RN, its traditions and capabilities, I still rate the retaking of the Falklands as one of the greatest naval feats in history!

    What does concern me is the general illusion created by government that building two aircraft carriers and half a dozen Frigates will restored the capabilties the service had 20 years ago where it in reality doesn't even bring them back to where they have come from

    Numbers of projected hulls have been slashed time and time again.

    Gaps in capability became apparent immediately on retirement of assets, (Carriers and Libya) come to mind and then then spend millions on refurbishing an RFA asset and put it up for sale with no replacement in sight.They then turn around again and sell the only fleet repair vessel again without replacement and talk of permanently deploying soon to be built frigates overseas.

    The type of ships, their age, lack of planned replacement and realistic building schedules for replacements is not being adressed


    Let me clarify, in January 2017 the Royal Navy had 77 vessels of all types in commission, 19 of these are classed as major surface combat vessels, 6 Type 45s and 13 frigates, of these one Type 45 is a harbour training vessel and two Type 23s are undergoing long term refits, Of that 77 vessels one submarine was decommissioned and paid off last month.

    The last Frigate Commissioned was 15 years ago, the first of these 15 years earlier, the last Destroyer commissioned being 2013. Given it takes two years to build a Frigate and 6 months fit out and trials if they build two per year it will take 7 years to replace those frigates already in service and at that point the youngest of the destroyers will be 15 years old . Best production year for frigates was 1994 with four completed.

    £178bn won't last long given all of the Mine countermeasures vessels range from 1981 to 2000 in age so will need replacement along with the remainder of the Fleet Submarines dating from 1989,1990 and 1991.

    And I'm not even looking at the RFA vessels that will need replacing in the same time period.

    I understand where you are coming from defending what the RN maybe in five years time but 20 years of under investment and cuts have undermined that Navy which did things like re taking the Falklands, defended the North Atlantic during the cold war and was a force to be respected and feared.

    Given that the Russian Navy only leaves port in order to break down, and the rest of the time gives itself cancer, I'm inclined to be a little sanguine about the impending threat that this monster of the sea poses.

    One decrepit carrier did manage to deploy and fly off strikes using its own aircraft in the recent past... yes it had a fleet tug attached all the way out and back for when, not if it broke down....but guess what, they were able to do it, the value was negligble as the same strikes could have been flown from the Russian mainland refuelled. But thats a capacity the RN has lacked.

    So my final word

    6 Type 45s with full missile fit out

    At least 10 Type 31 class Frigates

    Two Carriers with full air compliments

    And then Britannia can rule the waves again!
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 14th September 2017 at 14:18.
    Just visiting

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    Hi Murph,

    Thanks for your reply and I'll start by apologising...my reply won't be as in depth as I'd like...I've only access to a tablet at the moment and don't fancy getting RSI from bashing the screen.

    I'd take issue with the point you make about the carriers Mate...yes there has been a capability gap but in the next few years the RN will be...hopefully...able to put to sea a CAG.

    That CAG will be based around a state of the art ship...flying fifth generation stealth fighters...up to I believe 48 though they will only routinely carry 24.

    That vs the Invincible Class of 20 years ago... Only able to carry 9 or so harriers...not able to get further than the Bay of Biscay without breaking down...no sorry I believe the RN are definitely heading in the right direction. And they started heading in the right direction the day they sent those tubs to the breakers yard.

    RFA Diligence the repair ship...you are aware that the UK are building a permanent base in Bahrain...HMS Jufair...thus making Diligence surplus to requirement (she was permanently based in the Middle East).

    You refer to the cuts in hull numbers...the UK Government has said repeatedly that they intend to grow the numbers of escorts available to the RN ie more than 19. It shouldn't take long to overtake the mighty Russians...they only have 21 destroyers and frigates...many of which are over 30 years old.

    You highlight the fact that a new frigate hasn't been built for 15 years...true...but at the same time ignore that new classes of Destroyers, SSN's, Aircraft Carriers, OPV's and RFA's have been brought into service in that time...plus Wildcat for the FAA and a completely new ASW helicopter in Merlin.

    I get that people want to see a RN with more hulls...so do I...however the remember too that in the past 20 years the UK has fought in...and is still fighting in two major conflicts...we have lived through a major global economic depression...all of that has had financial implications for our country and for every other country in NATO.

    Whilst the RN of today is smaller it is technically more capable than that of 20 years ago...unlike Mr Putins crew who are operating mainly Cold War era equipment. That's what gives the RN and will continue to give it the edge...no-one expects the Britannia to rule the waves...but we do expect to play our part in promoting global stability through the projection of power at sea...with our Allies.

    The Russian Carrier... great it can go to sea...and sometimes launch aircraft which don't crash and kill their aircrew. Not much use in a shooting war though...as it goes to the bottom after having its back broken by a US... UK or German torpedo...because that would be its ultimate fate in a RF v NATO shooting war.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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    I don't think you'll find anyone who wouldn't prefer 8 T45's and the 13 T26 - and who decries the political interference that made them all so late.

    But.

    But.

    The talk of past hull numbers should be warning - let's recall that of the 30+ RN escorts that went to the Falklands in 1982, only half a dozen of them were really able to defend themselves against a threat that was based almost entirely on technology that was 20+ years old, and possibly 10 years out of date...

    Many of those escorts contributed only one thing - the ability to burn well. Numbers of hills mean less than what's in those hulls...

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