I still think the smaller hull is a fallacy - for some reason the MoD seems to think that smaller = cheaper. Not allowing for development cost and the fact that the main cost factors are the systems. Air is cheap and steel is free.
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Originally posted by Graylion View PostI still think the smaller hull is a fallacy - for some reason the MoD seems to think that smaller = cheaper. Not allowing for development cost and the fact that the main cost factors are the systems. Air is cheap and steel is free.
The proven truth is that not all new ship types meet required standards unless you build an existing hull with proven Power and distribution, then add in your own Defence packages.
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Fleet teeth extracted
Originally posted by Graylion View PostI still think the smaller hull is a fallacy - for some reason the MoD seems to think that smaller = cheaper. Not allowing for development cost and the fact that the main cost factors are the systems. Air is cheap and steel is free.
Naval management should keep all systems fitted working until a newer agreed system is ready to replace it. There is choice problems, with potential for extended delays, leaving all ships at an OPV armament level.
Someone must have foolishly said the Harpoon is out-of-date and needs replacement. The result being, no more spares, no more replacement missiles etc.
Every harpoon launcher should be replaced with a Kronsberg NSM while they make up their minds.Last edited by ancientmariner; 18 November 2016, 15:04.
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostDealing with the present breed of civilian overseers, both elected and Whitehall, a naval capability can disappear overnight. The latest proposal emanating from the mandarins, is to strike down all Harpoon systems, leaving ships so fitted, with bullets and shells as only armament.
Naval management should keep all systems fitted working until a newer agreed system is ready to replace it. There is choice problems, with potential for extended delays, leaving all ships at an OPV armament level.
Someone must have foolishly said the Harpoon is out-of-date and needs replacement. The result being, no more spares, no more replacement missiles etc.
Every harpoon launcher should be replaced with a Kronsberg NSM while they make up their minds.
And it's not like this is new for the RN, the 42's ended their surface as nothing more than a gun and a helicopter platform due to the Sea Dart's end of life, or the OHP's of the USN ending their service with no SAM's either.
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I have a feeling that the "Type 31" will be essentially a stretched "River" in the end. With the Batch 1 Rivers being sold off. (A P40 did some exercises with a River1 recently off the south coast I think.)
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Originally posted by Galloglass View PostI have a feeling that the "Type 31" will be essentially a stretched "River" in the end. With the Batch 1 Rivers being sold off. (A P40 did some exercises with a River1 recently off the south coast I think.)
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-...pe-31-frigate/
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Missile systems
Originally posted by Sparky42 View PostThis isn't something "new" it's been flagged for several years at least (I'm sure I read about it back when the 22's mounts were being suggested to move to some of the 45's). Given the state of the RN's budget issues and the still up in the air spec of the 26 I actually think it's perhaps the least worse option for them. If they spend the money to reset the current harpoons to extend their end of life then the face either paying twice (once for the reset, then for a replacement) and risk the MOD forcing a new missile further back, or risk getting stuck with a UK only system with all the costs that brings, or weight for a new system when the 26's are fixed.
And it's not like this is new for the RN, the 42's ended their surface as nothing more than a gun and a helicopter platform due to the Sea Dart's end of life, or the OHP's of the USN ending their service with no SAM's either.
The Indians might not think that Harpoon systems both Surface and Sub-Surface launched are out of Date. They are getting 22 systems via Boeing, for their submarines at 81m USD. I think that laterally British MOD are only thinking in terms of £SD and packaging and repackaging troops into "cost effective" parcels, generally sacrificing mobility, cohesion, and Command structures. I hope the Generals can maintain all elements of their Air Assault Brigade in a "good to go" condition. It is difficult to overcome in peacetime? that the next rank to CGS is a civil service Clerical Officer.
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post.
The Indians might not think that Harpoon systems both Surface and Sub-Surface launched are out of Date. They are getting 22 systems via Boeing, for their submarines at 81m USD. I think that laterally British MOD are only thinking in terms of £SD and packaging and repackaging troops into "cost effective" parcels, generally sacrificing mobility, cohesion, and Command structures. I hope the Generals can maintain all elements of their Air Assault Brigade in a "good to go" condition. It is difficult to overcome in peacetime? that the next rank to CGS is a civil service Clerical Officer.
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Originally posted by Sparky42 View PostI suppose it depends, I mean with their procurement process it could be another decade before it gets into service, they also have much heavier ASM's as well. For the RN, with their budgets as is which makes more sense spend the money to reset the Harpoon's and then face the "complaints" if they then wanted to replace it with a newer/better system (or face having to use it for an extended period), or risk going with a development that ends up with the UK alone? In reality until/unless the UK decides what if any ASM the 35 is going to field then it should hold off on buying ASM and focus on fixing the 45's and getting the 26's into production.
The only ASM's I'm aware of are Harpoon and the air launched Sea Skua. Land Strike is huge using Tomahawk and Trident (N). Modern NSM range are available covering both ship and land targets within 100nm.
At least 75% of existing ships should be fully operational Harpoon wise while the remainder are being refitted with an off the shelf system, then continue the refit for the remainder in tranches of 25 %.
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostOn the basis of "JAM TODAY" ships should be armed to meet the threat posed by numbers of vessels with Land/Sea Strike missiles that are operational out there. Ten years is a generation in most technical/electronic systems when replacements would be at least planned for immediate implementation. Upsetting MOD in an uncompromising environment should not be a Naval problem.
The only ASM's I'm aware of are Harpoon and the air launched Sea Skua. Land Strike is huge using Tomahawk and Trident (N). Modern NSM range are available covering both ship and land targets within 100nm.
At least 75% of existing ships should be fully operational Harpoon wise while the remainder are being refitted with an off the shelf system, then continue the refit for the remainder in tranches of 25 %.
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