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  • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
    To me given how much the 26's have gone off the rails and the upcoming issues (Successor and even the fix of the 45's) if the MOD/RN are smarter this time they will go for the low risk bid, though given past projects it could end up the complete opposite.



    Honestly the 26 GP would have made the most sense, they've spent 25 years doing development work, they are finally at the point of starting to build the things, why not use efficiencies of production? Instead we have the 31, of which BAE's suggestions are pretty low risk/mods for example. That being said it still doesn't make sense to me, I mean even just take the main gun issue, more new buy 5" with the costs they have? Stick end of life 4.5" mounts on it, start a new supplychain for a 76mm? or mount something smaller on a "Frigate"?

    Type 31 seems to be more a political kite ie they wanted to save money from the costly 26's but avoid the political cost of reducing the RN further, so these "Light Frigates" are going to solve the issues of hull numbers/costs/exports all in one go... Or rather kick the issue into the next or second next Parliaments.
    The Export version of the 31 seems to be a bit of a Brexit Hail Mary as well, many countries are open to buying light frigates, infact there has been a market for them for years. The Germans, Dutch, Italians,French and so on have all managed to sell them somewhere or other, the British have failed miserably, but now, with Brexit looming they're clinging on to some hope they can miraculously develop markets, find customers and build a product everyones going to want? Seems like someone just wiped away the last 40 years of BAE and all their shenanigans, and is gagging to sell best of British again.

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    • Given the variety and amount of threats to World Peace and The Maritime environment there is a constant need for useful ships--hence the growth and possibilities for the enhanced OPV, even to the point of making versions of them such as AS, AA, and ASU or even multirole. The British problem is a combination of slow final production often highlighted in the media and in Parliament. Too much money is spent getting ready to spend more. Building front line ships over a number of parliaments is a recipe for getting what you didn't ask for in the first place. Foreign sales are often predicated on a turnkey contract to include total ship training including Sea Training. Nobody will want a ship that is almost two decades in gestation.

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      • Some interesting comments here referencing the P60's.
        In 2023, the Royal Navy hopes the first of its new Type 31 frigates will hit the waves to replace HMS Argyll, the first of 13 Type 23 frigates scheduled to begin retiring that year, with another to retire every year until 2035. The new vessels will add desperately needed...


        Whether the Type 31 will even be proper frigate is up for debate. One possibility for the frigate is a stretched version of the Samuel Beckett-class offshore patrol vessel built by Babcock Marine, currently in service with the Irish Navy. Another is a BAE-built enlargement of the Al Shamikh-class corvette in service with Oman — renamed Cutlass — or an enlarged River-class offshore patrol vessel.
        Also mentions Project Spartan, first I've heard of that. Some detail here:

                                      Steller Systems is looking forward to the upcoming publication this spring of the National Ship Building Strategy, in response to Sir John Parker’s November 2016 report.  This called for a “sea change” in naval procurement and a “modern and innovative [more...]
        Last edited by Herald; 30 August 2017, 20:37.

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        • Originally posted by Herald View Post
          Some interesting comments here referencing the P60's.
          In 2023, the Royal Navy hopes the first of its new Type 31 frigates will hit the waves to replace HMS Argyll, the first of 13 Type 23 frigates scheduled to begin retiring that year, with another to retire every year until 2035. The new vessels will add desperately needed...


          Also mentions Project Spartan, first I've heard of that. Some detail here:

          http://www.stellersystems.co.uk/news...rpose-frigate/
          I'd laugh if it ended up being a modified Beckett, but I doubt it, the Spartan I also think is a none runner, think BMT is teaming up with Columbia to build a Venator 110 so perhaps I'd rate it or the BAE design more likely.

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          • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
            I'd laugh if it ended up being a modified Beckett, but I doubt it, the Spartan I also think is a none runner, think BMT is teaming up with Columbia to build a Venator 110 so perhaps I'd rate it or the BAE design more likely.
            There would probably be an outcry if it was a "facking elongated oirish fisheries patrol vessel" alright.

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            • Originally posted by Herald View Post
              There would probably be an outcry if it was a "facking elongated oirish fisheries patrol vessel" alright.
              It's not just that, but I'd imagine a fiar bit of work would need to go into the design if it ended up trying to be a "Light Frigate" type. The 31 still doesn't really make sense to me, I mean clearly the 26 program has massive issues, but still you have an all up design, why then do this instead of the "GP" versions.

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              • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                It's not just that, but I'd imagine a fiar bit of work would need to go into the design if it ended up trying to be a "Light Frigate" type. The 31 still doesn't really make sense to me, I mean clearly the 26 program has massive issues, but still you have an all up design, why then do this instead of the "GP" versions.
                Probably low budget, brexit, a realisation that nobody is going to buy BAE's overpriced tat and that "export" is a way of selling it to the Government that at least gets some type of FFNW hulls in the water?

                Whats the Budget here realistically? £250m, by the time they're built, £350m?

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                • Originally posted by Herald View Post
                  Probably low budget, brexit, a realisation that nobody is going to buy BAE's overpriced tat and that "export" is a way of selling it to the Government that at least gets some type of FFNW hulls in the water?

                  Whats the Budget here realistically? £250m, by the time they're built, £350m?
                  If they wanted FFNW they should have stuck with the 26's, hell if they hadn't screwed around for so long the chances of it getting foreign orders (Australia for example) would be a lot higher. But yeah as before since more than a bit of the equipment is being hidden in the 23's upgrades the cost is insane.

                  In terms of what 31 ends up as, I'd say it all depends on a couple of factors, a) is it an OPV+, or a Light Frigate, and b) are they going to give it to BAE and face the normal spiral or go outside them to one of the other builders (think I've seen suggestions that they are looking at an English yard this time)

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                  • I see that Beckett is going to DSEI this year:

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                    • Originally posted by Herald View Post
                      Probably low budget, brexit, a realisation that nobody is going to buy BAE's overpriced tat and that "export" is a way of selling it to the Government that at least gets some type of FFNW hulls in the water?

                      Whats the Budget here realistically? £250m, by the time they're built, £350m?
                      The budget is £2 Billion for six or circa £330m a unit. "Export" mmmm ..... lets see ..... the Type 31 coming onto the market at the same time as the 4200 tonne FFX-III Batch 2 with MFR-ISRT active phased array radar networked into CEC/NIFC-CA, CAPTAS 4 and UMS 4110 sonar, 24-32 Mk41 VLS, 8 Harpoon Tubes and a Mk. 45 Mod 4 up front with MT-30 propulsion so to keep up with USN Carrier Strike Groups, for the same sort of money? Yeah ... you have good reason to be a skeptic about the Type 31's export prospects.

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                      • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                        The budget is £2 Billion for six or circa £330m a unit. "Export" mmmm ..... lets see ..... the Type 31 coming onto the market at the same time as the 4200 tonne FFX-III Batch 2 with MFR-ISRT active phased array radar networked into CEC/NIFC-CA, CAPTAS 4 and UMS 4110 sonar, 24-32 Mk41 VLS, 8 Harpoon Tubes and a Mk. 45 Mod 4 up front with MT-30 propulsion so to keep up with USN Carrier Strike Groups, for the same sort of money? Yeah ... you have good reason to be a skeptic about the Type 31's export prospects.
                        Won't the French and Italian "low end Frigate" designs also be coming on stream around about when the 31 enters production, but hasn't the UK been talking up chances of exports of everything? I seem to remember there once being a suggestion that the Saudi's would buy some export 45's, and the list for the 26 was fairly large at one stage as well...

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                        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                          Won't the French and Italian "low end Frigate" designs also be coming on stream around about when the 31 enters production, but hasn't the UK been talking up chances of exports of everything? I seem to remember there once being a suggestion that the Saudi's would buy some export 45's, and the list for the 26 was fairly large at one stage as well...
                          The French with the Frégates de Taille Intermédiaire and the Italian Fincantieri PPA will be much more capable than the mooted Type 31's but in both cases likely to be around a reputed €530m per vessel versus £330m or €360m for the Type 31. But an export buyer would be getting an intermediate frigate that is capable of living in a high threat environment.

                          With the Batch III FFX a scalable evolution of the HDF-3500 design and building on the current Daegu Class Batch II the buyer is getting also a peer level intermediate frigate capability with room for growth to 48 VLS for circa USD$550 or €465m based on the contracted price to the Korean government - that is the difference that efficient superyards, competitive procurement management, type evolution over production batches, consistent build sequencing and economies of scale can bring which does not seem to be happening with how the UK is going about its builds at present I'm afraid.

                          Thailand has recently received a DW-3000 Daegu batch II variant for a contracted €345m or USD$410m - and it has parity to upgraded RAN & RNZN Anzacs - this is what the Type 31 will be competing against on the export market and the French and Italian offerings compound this issue. Countries that do not wish to engage in job creation schemes and build their own frigates are avoiding frigate projects that have that as their rationale.



                          The Saudi's would snap up AB's if they were allowed them ....

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                          • The UK has released their National Shipbuilding strategy:


                            Big push that the 31e (for exports you see) are going to be designed with export orders in mind (usual we've been talking to all the other navies that are interested bit), we'll have to wait for next week for the proposed designs.

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                            • Leaving Europe will reduce their customer base considerably.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                              • France pretty much seemed to have covered the ‘light frigate’/ ‘fisheries patrol plus’ vessel idea years ago, with their 'Floreal Class'. Said vessels of 2,600 tons (2,950 loaded), 93m long and built to commercial ship standards, and with a main gun (100mm) and two secondary guns (20mm) – so pretty similar in approach as the NS later P50/P60s.

                                However, they interestingly also carry ‘only’ a pair of anti-ship missiles, and a pair of SAM launchers, decoys and a helicopter and hanger.

                                So the Floreals are an interesting comparison for potential upgrades to NS ships if desired, or for future NS vessels, if a modicum of anti-ship and anti-air defence capability was sought, and similar to the British Government’s concept of a lighter/cheaper frigate or ‘OPV plus’?

                                See below for an article/blog about a 2014 offer (via STX France) of an improved Floreal Class (suitable for low to intermediate threat environment) for a Philippine Navy requirement for a ‘light frigate’ and links and details of some of the competing offers.

                                (This blog has since been “rebooted” in January 24, 2016 after the manufacturer published the brochure of the upgraded Floreal. You can access the rebooted blog here: New Frigate Biddin…


                                Sorry, here is the 2016 update of above article/blog - with details of the proposed new generation Floreal Class from STX France (hope this hasn't been mentioned already)..
                                I already made a couple of blogs about the candidates for the Philippine Navy’s New Frigate Acquisition Project, and I actually didn’t want to write another one. I figured that by this time the win…
                                Last edited by WhingeNot; 7 September 2017, 02:46. Reason: updated reference article

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