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  • #16
    absolutely not. The Naval Service is imbued with capability and awaiting an opportunity to be a blue water Navy. Most Navies do mundane coast guard policing on fishing, contraband etc. We are also suppose to Defend, Support, and Protect, which requires ships such as L12 or a good version of it. Out from under the Air Corps , there is no reason why we couldn't operate our own rotary air branch, even up to Chinook size . We have taken our ships world wide, China, Great Lakes, USA, Ecuador, Brazil,and circumnavigation of South America via Cape Horn. There is no limit to a seaman's horizon given moderate finance and remember a Navy is always operational and ready to go. Loads of bang for your buck.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
      absolutely not. The Naval Service is imbued with capability and awaiting an opportunity to be a blue water Navy. Most Navies do mundane coast guard policing on fishing, contraband etc. We are also suppose to Defend, Support, and Protect, which requires ships such as L12 or a good version of it. Out from under the Air Corps , there is no reason why we couldn't operate our own rotary air branch, even up to Chinook size . We have taken our ships world wide, China, Great Lakes, USA, Ecuador, Brazil,and circumnavigation of South America via Cape Horn. There is no limit to a seaman's horizon given moderate finance and remember a Navy is always operational and ready to go. Loads of bang for your buck.
      There are plenty of steps that could and should be taken before procuring such a ship/capacitycapability, right now it would be very much a White Elephant, particularly if it's operational lifespan is sub 10 years at the time of retirement. How far we have gone on tours is completely different to maintaining a force in an operation for example. There are plenty of smart potential increases and worthwhile investments that we could look at, Ocean isn't one of them IMO.

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      • #18
        I agree with Ancient Mariner . HMS Ocean will be 20 years old in 2 years time albeit having had a recent £65 Million refit with still plenty of service in her.
        I see her as providing many many opportunities for development and increased capability for all 3 IDF Services and will provide a goal for all 3 services to increase capability as we are forecast to have population growth and GDP growth.

        Lets all pull together with a "Can-do " attitude and philosophy and grow , extend our capabilities .If we look for ways out and see problems , any project will fail to achieve our potential.Think what this ship could do for all of us and for the nation .Are we not celebrating our past history just now ( 1916 )??

        If we look over the horizon and think big we can have an even more proud IDF with outstanding assets always manned and equipped for the future.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
          There are plenty of steps that could and should be taken before procuring such a ship/capacitycapability, right now it would be very much a White Elephant, particularly if it's operational lifespan is sub 10 years at the time of retirement. How far we have gone on tours is completely different to maintaining a force in an operation for example. There are plenty of smart potential increases and worthwhile investments that we could look at, Ocean isn't one of them IMO.
          What would it cost to run her, probably consume a fair bit of NS share of DF budget, cant see other depts subsidising her from their budgets. Something like this is a non runner from any amount of perspectives.

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          • #20
            it would take pretty much the entire naval service to man the Ocean, not to mention the ship could accomodate the entire AC helicopter fleet and every soldier in the Df earmarked for overseas service.

            oh and its for sale cause its worn out.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by paul g View Post
              it would take pretty much the entire naval service to man the Ocean, not to mention the ship could accomodate the entire AC helicopter fleet and every soldier in the Df earmarked for overseas service.

              oh and its for sale cause its worn out.
              Hell, are the 139's even equipped for salt corrosion, or folding blades etc? But those are technical questions. the bottom line is as the majority agree it's a well out there suggestion.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by paul g View Post
                it would take pretty much the entire naval service to man the Ocean, not to mention the ship could accomodate the entire AC helicopter fleet and every soldier in the Df earmarked for overseas service.

                oh and its for sale cause its worn out.
                Not so it is for sale because of the advent of the two Carriers. She would be cheap enough to run as she has two standard Pielstick engines delivering a moderate 18knots top speed. Likely 16knots in normal service. When her seagoing life is over, after her refit maybe 20 years, she can still be a Naval barracks in Dublin, and a Naval deck for rotary use,VTOL in emergencies, and accommodation as required.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  Not so it is for sale because of the advent of the two Carriers. She would be cheap enough to run as she has two standard Pielstick engines delivering a moderate 18knots top speed. Likely 16knots in normal service. When her seagoing life is over, after her refit maybe 20 years, she can still be a Naval barracks in Dublin, and a Naval deck for rotary use,VTOL in emergencies, and accommodation as required.
                  So what you're saying is that not only is it too big for our purposes, not having enough sailors to man it, helicopters or troops to use it effectively but it's slow as well.

                  Are you smoking crack, or are you a piss taker.

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                  • #24
                    I think Ancient just doesn't want anyone talking about anything like a Type 31 Paul.
                    Particularly anything similar to a Khareef (modified River) and especially a modified P60.....I think it's a more "interesting" topic myself.

                    Ancient wants an MRV.....everything else must die (smiley)
                    Last edited by Galloglass; 1 April 2016, 13:42.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
                      I think Ancient just doesn't want anyone talking about anything like a Type 31 Paul.
                      Particularly anything similar to a Khareef (modified River) and especially a modified P60.....I think it's a more "interesting" topic myself.

                      Ancient wants an MRV.....everything else must die (smiley)
                      If the "MRV" that is to replace Eithne got down graded to "just" a Frigate type, depending on the price and the upgradeability (for the CAMM etc) the Venator design might be a runner I would think particularly if we could leverage off a 5 ship production line (depending on costs of course). In terms of the Khareef does it suffer from the usually issue of the crew accommodation being less than what European Navies have moved to now? And if so could that be brought up to "acceptable" levels without impacting the design even more?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                        If the "MRV" that is to replace Eithne got down graded to "just" a Frigate type, depending on the price and the upgradeability (for the CAMM etc) the Venator design might be a runner I would think particularly if we could leverage off a 5 ship production line (depending on costs of course). In terms of the Khareef does it suffer from the usually issue of the crew accommodation being less than what European Navies have moved to now? And if so could that be brought up to "acceptable" levels without impacting the design even more?
                        I think the point is if the RN decides to MODIFY a Khareef or another OPV design into a Type31....What options they offer then (including accommodation} one stated intention being that they would attract sales from "smaller navies" etc
                        I like the Venator myself or a Damen Crossover variant as a "step up" for the NS.... if they chose to modify a P60 rather than a River I'd be VERY interested to see their designs.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                          If the "MRV" that is to replace Eithne got down graded to "just" a Frigate type, depending on the price and the upgradeability (for the CAMM etc) the Venator design might be a runner I would think particularly if we could leverage off a 5 ship production line (depending on costs of course). In terms of the Khareef does it suffer from the usually issue of the crew accommodation being less than what European Navies have moved to now? And if so could that be brought up to "acceptable" levels without impacting the design even more?
                          What you want your vessel to do and where it should operate dictates what it should be, not what other people have or want or are trying to get rid off.

                          There is a fixation about amphibious assault vessels on the board that is hard to understand given the size and type of the forces we deploy oversaeas. If the MRV’s primary role is to transport the army overseas units overseas then you have to realise its not something we do very often.

                          The battalion that was deployed to Lebanon in 2011 for example was the largest ever deployment of irish military equipment, but that type of deployment only takes place every decade, and is best done via commercial shipping and ports. That deployment was too small for HMP Ocean

                          EU ISTAR company is actually the main rapid deployment force, but due to its size and role (discussed extensively in An Coasantor in 2012) it might also well be best to transport that by air if there was an emergency. Transporting it to an exercise in a host nation ( if politically possible) would also be best done by commercial shipping.

                          The ranger wing, is the other main rapid deployment force, but again air assets were used to deploy them to chad and the size of force involved would be about sixty men., which hardly justifies a HMS Ocean sized vessel. However the ability to deploy a special forces unit from a ship, by RhIB would be a useful force multiplier for the MRV?EPV

                          What is really needed are long range vessels that can go out into the ocean and carry out patrols in harsh conditions with a useful military capability. That’s why they tendered for an extended patrol vessel in 2006. Since then piracy off west Africa and elsewhere has totally changed the maritime security space. The threat comes not from soviet submaries or peer sized navy but from non nation states.

                          From my perspective the Venator 110 would be ideal to replace Eithne around 2021. The NS have previous experience of working with the designer BMT, and it could be built in any ship yard.

                          Arm it with
                          a 76mm forward and 2 remote control 30mm cannons (oto melara marlins), along with 12.7 mm machine guns to provide a limited anti surface capability
                          a 16 round VLS for self defence, buy the south African umkonto, after all the Finnish navy uses it.
                          counter measures against SSM
                          A sensor fit similar to the Dutch Holland class OPV for ISR.
                          A helicopter and hanger for an AW 139 sized helicopter and a UAV
                          Space for four MST RHIB for boarding and or other operations.
                          Space to carry containers and or a special forces unit of about sixty.

                          Build two for long range operations in the EEZ, or overseas missions, operating off the coast of west Africa, the med and Horn of Africa.

                          Hence you’d have a Flotilla in 2026 with
                          1 EPV Squadron/ 2 Venator 110 Class Patrol Frigates
                          1 OPV Squadron/ 3 Samuel Backets
                          1 LPV Squadron /2 Niamh
                          1 CPV Squadron/ 2 CPV
                          Last edited by paul g; 1 April 2016, 17:57.

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                          • #28
                            Sounds lovely Paul......Is there any signifigance in designating them squadrons in your mind? Always thought the designation of P50s as LPVs was an acronym too far.

                            Hence you’d have a Flotilla in 2026 with
                            1 EPV Squadron/ 2 Venator 110 Class Patrol Frigates
                            1 OPV Squadron/ 5 Vessels
                            1 CPV Squadron/ 2 CPV

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
                              .... if they chose to modify a P60 rather than a River I'd be VERY interested to see their designs.
                              Thought this Roisin++ design, as offered to the USCG, may be of interest to you...

                              Click image for larger version

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                              Vard 7 100 OPV.pdf

                              Disappointingly uncrunchy...

                              Originally posted by paul g View Post
                              There is a fixation about amphibious assault vessels on the board that is hard to understand...
                              Believe it may have something to do with, the fact that, it was one of the two remaining enumerated defence restrictions Dev (the original Dev, that is) didn't manage to negotiate away by threatening not to recognise Edward VIII's abdication.

                              We were not allowed to maintain an Air Force or Amphibious forces until (believe it or not) the 1998 Good Friday Agreement and the subsequent repeal of the 1922 Government of Ireland Act.

                              The Air Corps got blue uniforms shortly thereafter.

                              The Navy's still waiting...

                              Wonder how we'd be set now if Churchill and Lloyd George had forbidden us from having a space programme?
                              Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 21 April 2016, 13:30. Reason: Grammar correction

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                              • #30
                                More River adaptions ....http://www.janes.com/article/60007/r...patrol-vessels

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