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  • #46
    Even the Spanish ADD is superior. Australian orders confirm this.
    Basically anything with a Phased array is superior. Why the RN insist on a rotating Air Search radar is difficult to comprehend.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
      Bad move, as the RN have been there before with GP frigates.. The Type 21s were GP frigates and when realised how toothless they were it was too late.

      But its OK as you have an equally toothless Type 45 Destroyer to provide assistance, while being covered by unfinished carriers carrying a totally unproven and unbuilt aircraft.

      Do you see a trend emerging?

      the only value in these enlarged OPVs and and GP frigates is for the export market to emerging nations and Navies like |Ireland who build their resources around them.

      The RN has been digging a huge grave for itself in the past 15 years...carry on.. you are doing brilliantly!!!

      Get back to building credible warships before they find themselves extinct.
      Spot on, pretty nearly every defence product made in the UK or their proxies is "world class" whilst there is a sniff of export sales and continues until the last remaining surplus/cast offs have been flogged off.

      Comment


      • #48
        Sampson is an Aesa radar, two arrays that rotate as apposted to 4 fixed arrays.

        Im Ron Burgendy??

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        • #49
          Still, rotating platform. always a blind spot.
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
            Even the Spanish ADD is superior. Australian orders confirm this.
            Basically anything with a Phased array is superior. Why the RN insist on a rotating Air Search radar is difficult to comprehend.
            In a word BAE. HMG privatised the UK arms industry & R&D some years ago and buy the offerings from BAE and will continue to do so in aid of UK industry and in having an indigenous arms industry. This , rightly or wrongly, is Gov policy however at times it is unclear as to which is the cart/tail and which is the dog/horse.

            Comment


            • #51
              It has no serious missile capability compared to other destroyers and the propulsion issue is far from being rectified other than a complete plant refit. HMS Duncan is now reduced to being a harbour training vessel because of reliability and crewing issues with another Type 23 HMS being reduced to mothballs and stripped of stores for the remaining type 23s. The RN is in serious trouble given the problematic propulsion unit is that fitted to the carrier s.

              Maybe we could donate Aisling to dig them out
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

              Comment


              • #52
                It is being suggest that the UK should be looking outside of the UK for its new builds. The fact no one has been buying new builds based on RN types seems to highlight issues.
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                Comment


                • #53
                  Rn ships

                  Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                  It is being suggest that the UK should be looking outside of the UK for its new builds. The fact no one has been buying new builds based on RN types seems to highlight issues.
                  In the 1950's, in the UK, there were literally scores of major ship building yards, many capable of building major warships such as carriers, battleships, troopers, all backed up by producers of steel, electronics, and weapon systems. Over the years all the backbone of industrial might and particularly shipbuilding has been emaciated followed by a total collapse and disappearance of the major shipping companies.
                  The only productive yards are those building a few warships for the RN, unfortunately every warship built seems to be a prototype of a new class. This leads to a trial and error scenario which leads to a major failure if an "error" occurs. The most unwanted error is that of propulsion and power supply on board. There is a period of trying to fix and make do which of course means that your never "GOOD TO GO".
                  It is possible to build at satellite yards using the modern MOTS(military off the shelf) and COTS (commercial off the shelf) principles. Then bring it all together at the assembly yard.
                  Every ship built should have a minimum of a 35 year life. The RN have turned over Fleet elements in well less than 20 years which indicates finding out over time the ship is not fit for purpose. BEATTY famously said "there is something wrong with our bloody ships today" at the battle of Jutland.

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                  • #54
                    But are the "productive yards" and the reduced life of vessels directly linked?

                    Ie the only thing really keeping the yards open are RN orders

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                      It has no serious missile capability compared to other destroyers and the propulsion issue is far from being rectified other than a complete plant refit. HMS Duncan is now reduced to being a harbour training vessel because of reliability and crewing issues with another Type 23 HMS being reduced to mothballs and stripped of stores for the remaining type 23s. The RN is in serious trouble given the problematic propulsion unit is that fitted to the carrier s.

                      Maybe we could donate Aisling to dig them out
                      T45 has sufficient missile capacity... the same missile capacity as HORIZON...and in PAAMS it can track 1000 targets at a range of 250 miles.

                      Can AEGIS do that...I don't believe it can.

                      Nothing I have read suggests that T45 requires a complete plant refit...they are having additional generator capacity fitted...the funds have been made available and this will be done as a rolling refit.

                      You say the Royal Navy are in serious trouble...again I point you to the First Sea Lords speech made last week.

                      He wouldn't agree with you Murph...and with respect his CV is a bit more impressive than that of anyone who posts on IMO.



                      You deride T31...yet no-one actually knows what it looks like.

                      HMS QE2 and POW...written off even though they haven't even gone into acceptance trials.

                      F35...no good apparently...if we're all spared for a few years we'll see if the 1SL is correct in his planning to have a RN CAG active by the early 2020's.

                      I'm quite confident that they will.
                      'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        But are the "productive yards" and the reduced life of vessels directly linked?

                        Ie the only thing really keeping the yards open are RN orders
                        You are near the truth in linking Yard viability with ship orders and repairs from both the RN and overseas clients. There is an element of fiscal adjustments which allows such Yards to be more competitive in pricing new builds.
                        Whether they dispose of ships early to create new business for builders is not measurable as those deleted to a large extent were not combat efficient as was exposed during Falklands War.
                        Our, now five ships, built by Babcocks, also need to have their combat efficiency evaluated and adjusted to a minimum provide by a SAAB type 9LV system, say to an 9LV Compact level to also deal with missile attack.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by spider View Post
                          T45 has sufficient missile capacity...
                          48 missiles versus 68 to 122 on a Ticonderoga class

                          If you have a Carrier and an amphibious group at sea that is 2 of the 5 taken up minimum (with no redundancy in those groups), you probably have 1 in refit/leave/etc. That leaves 1 if you wanted to defend say a surface attack group.

                          The SAMs are vertical launch which cannot AFAIK be reload via a RAS. Therefore either group will have restricted anti-aircraft capability when the single Type 45 has to leave to reload at a friendly port.

                          The most pressing problem is expensive delayed ships & reduced hull numbers.

                          You deride T31...yet no-one actually knows what it looks like.
                          Isn't that part of the point.... that means deliveries are probably at least 10 years off

                          HMS QE2 and POW...written off even though they haven't even gone into acceptance trials.

                          F35...no good apparently...if we're all spared for a few years we'll see if the 1SL is correct in his planning to have a RN CAG active by the early 2020's.
                          The new carriers can carry 40 aircraft each. But the 2 will never be able to put to sea together because there aren't enough destroyers & frigates to defend them and not enough aircraft to fly off them.

                          Of those 40 aircraft a number will have to be AEW helos, a couple of SAR helos, probably a ASW helos as well, so say max 30 X F35.

                          The F35 will be a very capable (and high maintenance) aircraft. You'll probably need 10 for air defence (between a CAP, ready aircraft, maintenance etc). So we are down to 20 X F35 on board to project power. At a high sortie rate probably 5-10 of them in maintenance at any 1 time.

                          But the 2015 SDSR said only 24 X F35 would be deployed to the 2 carriers

                          Oh and the RN currently has skilled shortages.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by spider View Post
                            T45 has sufficient missile capacity... the same missile capacity as HORIZON...and in PAAMS it can track 1000 targets at a range of 250 miles.

                            Can AEGIS do that...I don't believe it can.

                            Nothing I have read suggests that T45 requires a complete plant refit...they are having additional generator capacity fitted...the funds have been made available and this will be done as a rolling refit.

                            You say the Royal Navy are in serious trouble...again I point you to the First Sea Lords speech made last week.

                            He wouldn't agree with you Murph...and with respect his CV is a bit more impressive than that of anyone who posts on IMO.



                            You deride T31...yet no-one actually knows what it looks like.

                            HMS QE2 and POW...written off even though they haven't even gone into acceptance trials.

                            F35...no good apparently...if we're all spared for a few years we'll see if the 1SL is correct in his planning to have a RN CAG active by the early 2020's.

                            I'm quite confident that they will.
                            The Former First sea lord stood in the House of Lords last month and highlighted the current issues. The thoughts on P31s are generally accepted in commentary circles and the Cuts word has been reintroduced to mean having to cut open the 45s to get the power plants our. The other worrying issue us that by 202o the RN is without aircover for night on ten years. Will the politicos seen this as airport is not actually required at all.
                            We'll wait with baited breath
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              48 missiles versus 68 to 122 on a Ticonderoga class

                              If you have a Carrier and an amphibious group at sea that is 2 of the 5 taken up minimum (with no redundancy in those groups), you probably have 1 in refit/leave/etc. That leaves 1 if you wanted to defend say a surface attack group.

                              The SAMs are vertical launch which cannot AFAIK be reload via a RAS. Therefore either group will have restricted anti-aircraft capability when the single Type 45 has to leave to reload at a friendly port.

                              The most pressing problem is expensive delayed ships & reduced hull numbers.


                              Isn't that part of the point.... that means deliveries are probably at least 10 years off



                              The new carriers can carry 40 aircraft each. But the 2 will never be able to put to sea together because there aren't enough destroyers & frigates to defend them and not enough aircraft to fly off them.

                              Of those 40 aircraft a number will have to be AEW helos, a couple of SAR helos, probably a ASW helos as well, so say max 30 X F35.

                              The F35 will be a very capable (and high maintenance) aircraft. You'll probably need 10 for air defence (between a CAP, ready aircraft, maintenance etc). So we are down to 20 X F35 on board to project power. At a high sortie rate probably 5-10 of them in maintenance at any 1 time.

                              But the 2015 SDSR said only 24 X F35 would be deployed to the 2 carriers

                              Oh and the RN currently has skilled shortages.
                              Dev have you not already raised the above points over on arrse?

                              And had them dealt with by serving RN Officers?

                              I don't think the UK MOD ever envisages a situation where they will have two carrier groups fully worked up and at sea with a full compliment of F35's embarked on each ship.

                              If they ever do the likelihood is that that would be part of an international coalition.

                              You are right that delays in the T26 programme are a problem...I agree totally...but instead of everyone obsessing with what may or may not happen lets wait and see what does happen. The 1SL's speech of last week indicates the direction in which the RN is going...and the challenges it faces. My understanding is that in the autumn we will have an idea of what T31 will look like...what it will be capable of...and the timelines for delivery of T31 & T26.

                              The Royal Navy does indeed have a shortage of engineers at present...show me a Navy that doesn't.

                              One of our local mechanics just joined...and got a handsome bonus for doing so as he had mechanical engineering qualifications.

                              This would be a really good time to join the Royal Navy.

                              I'm trying my best to persuade one of my little arachnoids to join the Navy in an engineering trade...but he's set on the Army Air Corps.

                              Murph everyone and anyone on every discussion forum in the world can discuss and have views on T31...I just think its more sensible to wait and see what the thing actually looks like. You mentioned a few posts back that the RN had had its fingers burned with GP Frigates before...the current 1SL has served on T21's and is a Falklands War veteran. I can't think of anyone more qualified to ensure that past mistakes are not replicated in the design of T31.

                              The T45 will indeed have their hulls cut open...to fit extra generator capacity...which should rectify the current problems...see here...



                              The Royal Navy accepted back in 2010 that it would take ten years to re-generate a fast jet carrier capability.

                              That was a very painful time...for all three services...but we've turned the corner and are getting there not only with the carriers but also with other areas of defence which had to be gapped temporarily.
                              'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by spider View Post
                                Dev have you not already raised the above points over on arrse?

                                And had them dealt with by serving RN Officers?
                                Not on arrse but seen the posts.

                                I don't think the UK MOD ever envisages a situation where they will have two carrier groups fully worked up and at sea with a full compliment of F35's embarked on each ship.

                                If they ever do the likelihood is that that would be part of an international coalition.
                                Quite possibly but then you quite possibly don't need 2 carriers but that's another argument.

                                Either way it wouldn't be able to in any area with a significant threat


                                You are right that delays in the T26 programme are a problem...I agree totally...but instead of everyone obsessing with what may or may not happen lets wait and see what does happen. The 1SL's speech of last week indicates the direction in which the RN is going...and the challenges it faces. My understanding is that in the autumn we will have an idea of what T31 will look like...what it will be capable of...and the timelines for delivery of T31 & T26.
                                Until it runs over budget, there is a design issue, the design is changed, the capabilities are added to/removed, the budget is cut (as per most major MOD projects).

                                Murph everyone and anyone on every discussion forum in the world can discuss and have views on T31...I just think its more sensible to wait and see what the thing actually looks like. You mentioned a few posts back that the RN had had its fingers burned with GP Frigates before...the current 1SL has served on T21's and is a Falklands War veteran. I can't think of anyone more qualified to ensure that past mistakes are not replicated in the design of T31.
                                Where was he for the Type 45 and carriers?

                                How many RN project staff will be working for BAe soon?

                                The Royal Navy accepted back in 2010 that it would take ten years to re-generate a fast jet carrier capability.
                                Remains to be seen if it will take longer (or be delivered quicker)

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