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  1. #76
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    So you're not irlsgt Dev.

    Well you must have some sort of wierdo parallel though thing going on with that guy because he posts the same stuff you do on here.
    I admit we seem to have similar trains of taught on this issue. Doesn't mean it's wrong.

    Anyway...there is no 'time share' with the French.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...y-announced--2

    From what I gather the intent was that the UK would have access to the French carrier (probably until the UK's carrier capability is ready)

    The Royal Navy are building and commissioning two aircraft carriers one of which will be available for F35 operations at any given time.

    I've already done to death with you on other threads...several times...why the UK has a national shipbuilding policy.

    Yet you keep returning to the same points...again...and again...and again.
    we'll agree to differ

    If my efforts to explain things to you aren't to your satisfaction write to this bloke and ask him to explain his Departments policies;

    Rt Hon Michael Fallon MP, Whitehall, Westminster, London.

    Let us know how you get on.

    Again...the previous 1SL...Admiral Sir George Zambellas...not sure of his address but try Facebook.

    If hes on there you can ask him why it is you have to constantly fret about UK shipbuilding policies and T45 and QE class in particular.

    Let us know how you get on.
    it isn't my money, country or life they are risking

    BAE are guaranteeing jobs for anyone involved in any of their projects...wow...where did you get that from exactly?
    Maybe your energies would be better suited to challenging the policies of the Irish Government in relation to defence?

    After all you are an Irish tax payer...an Irish voter...an Irish Citizen.
    Where did I say that Ireland is an example of how to do it?

    For example, APC numbers. We didn't buy enough initially to equip an Inf Bn, I think we are down around 2 Coys now.


    How many P31's were the Irish Navy meant to get?

    They ended up with one...did that make LE Eithne any less capable a platform?
    depends on if the issues associated with it were cause by it.

    T23 was derided as a mickey mouse Frigate when they were being brought into service...they've now evolved into what they are.

    I'm quite confident that T45 will get there too.
    if the vessel isn't delivering the intended capability there is something wrong - that could be well intended in fairness (eg delivering on time, in budget etc.


    Re the P8...what were the other options out there for the RAF? Because Nimrod was a dead duck...great systems but the aircraft was never going to fly safely.
    +1

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    So you're not irlsgt Dev.

    Well you must have some sort of wierdo parallel though thing going on with that guy because he posts the same stuff you do on here.
    In fairness, while irlsgt and Dev may share views, there is a distinct difference in writing style. I'd not take them for the same person.

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  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I admit we seem to have similar trains of taught on this issue. Doesn't mean it's wrong.



    [





    if the vessel isn't delivering the intended capability there is something wrong - that could be well intended in fairness (eg delivering on time, in budget etc.


    +1

    Shipbuilding, particularly for Navies, has the added hazard of attracting capricious criticism, when things go in an unplanned direction. Warship Design is largely National but is subject to the bright ideas of whizz kids who occasionally miss collateral consequences of system input failures.
    The T45's had a huge Fleet Defence burden placed on them, with advanced AIR DEFENCE capabilities , against multi attacking targets in upper hundreds. The T45 is dependent on an innovative propulsion/power system which must deliver otherwise all other features fail. The problems seem to center around undelivered power levels and variables such as SEA Water Temperature and it's effects on power train cooling.
    I'm presuming that HT cooling system is a FW system ,and the LT cooling is also fresh water for lube oils, and this in turn is cooled by Sea Water system. The problem is common to all ships that travel inter climate where sea water can rise close to 30deg C.
    I remember slight problems with P31 off Bermuda until we adjusted it with reduced power demand. The T45 problems will be solved, at cost, however building specifications on power and propulsion need to be tighter especially for all seas and climates operations.
    It always brings me back to the fact that all ships accepted into state service must be classified as Good To Go, therefore during the guarantee period the ship should be tried out on an oceanic proving trip.

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  6. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Shipbuilding, particularly for Navies, has the added hazard of attracting capricious criticism, when things go in an unplanned direction. Warship Design is largely National but is subject to the bright ideas of whizz kids who occasionally miss collateral consequences of system input failures.
    The T45's had a huge Fleet Defence burden placed on them, with advanced AIR DEFENCE capabilities , against multi attacking targets in upper hundreds. The T45 is dependent on an innovative propulsion/power system which must deliver otherwise all other features fail. The problems seem to center around undelivered power levels and variables such as SEA Water Temperature and it's effects on power train cooling.
    I'm presuming that HT cooling system is a FW system ,and the LT cooling is also fresh water for lube oils, and this in turn is cooled by Sea Water system. The problem is common to all ships that travel inter climate where sea water can rise close to 30deg C.
    I remember slight problems with P31 off Bermuda until we adjusted it with reduced power demand. The T45 problems will be solved, at cost, however building specifications on power and propulsion need to be tighter especially for all seas and climates operations.
    It always brings me back to the fact that all ships accepted into state service must be classified as Good To Go, therefore during the guarantee period the ship should be tried out on an oceanic proving trip.
    Have to say. I really do enjoy reading your posts.

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  8. #80
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibenji View Post
    Have to say. I really do enjoy reading your posts.
    Helps that he knows what he is talking about.
    Just visiting

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  10. #81
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Spider.

    Clear your pm inbox
    Just visiting

  11. #82
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Photos seem to suggest the entire Type 45 class tied up .

    Now if six of the primary defence vessels for the fleet or indeed the nation are tied up awaiting repairs how soon can it be done.

    And the good news ..Type 23s are still out there doing the job.
    Just visiting

  12. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Photos seem to suggest the entire Type 45 class tied up .

    Now if six of the primary defence vessels for the fleet or indeed the nation are tied up awaiting repairs how soon can it be done.

    And the good news ..Type 23s are still out there doing the job.
    Well I think one of them is in reduced manning and is a training ship for the next couple of years, and others had returned from sailing but yeah it's not exactly a great sight.

  13. #84
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Well I think one of them is in reduced manning and is a training ship for the next couple of years, and others had returned from sailing but yeah it's not exactly a great sight.
    I did say that earlier. HMS Duncan has been reduced to harbour training ship role.
    Just visiting

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  15. #85
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Photos seem to suggest the entire Type 45 class tied up .

    Now if six of the primary defence vessels for the fleet or indeed the nation are tied up awaiting repairs how soon can it be done.

    And the good news ..Type 23s are still out there doing the job.
    More jumping to conclusions...

    I cleared my inbox three days ago BTW.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

  16. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    More jumping to conclusions...

    I cleared my inbox three days ago BTW.
    In reply to press queries regarding the entire T45 squadron being tied up the RN stated that 34 other RN units are at sea (presumably on operational station).

  17. #87
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    the torygraph today have an article entitled "labour saddled navy ships with dodgy engines".

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...dodgy-engines/

  18. #88
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    the torygraph today have an article entitled "labour saddled navy ships with dodgy engines".

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...dodgy-engines/
    Ha and the MOD, Navy, Rolls Royce and BAE are not to blame then!
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  20. #89
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    Typical Torygraph. Where do I even start. 6 ships have 12 engines. It is the ships that are worth >1G€ each, not the engines. And they are not being replaced, but every T45 is getting an additional diesel.

  21. #90
    C/S EUFighter's Avatar
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    The problem is the GE supplied intercooler. They should have stuck to the proven COGOG propulsion system.

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  24. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The problem is the GE supplied intercooler. They should have stuck to the proven COGOG propulsion system.
    ?? What does the intercooler have to do with IEP? IEP with a reliable prime mover would have worked. The issue is that the prime mover is anything but.

  25. #93
    C/S EUFighter's Avatar
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    See page 7 of your link and the details on Project Napier.
    Would love to see them try to refit the D45's with Napier Sabre engines, it nothing else it would make a great sound .

  26. #94
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    T 45 and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    See page 7 of your link and the details on Project Napier.
    Would love to see them try to refit the D45's with Napier Sabre engines, it nothing else it would make a great sound .
    No doubt the "D" class destroyers will have their power gremlins sorted. I hope cutting and stuffing in more generation will not radically alter the ships other parameters such as stability, electrical/transmission environment, and/or loss of wriggle room in living/ work spaces.
    The Royal Navy and Strategic Defence Reviews are having a major effect on ability to cover world wide Defence patrolling or Flag showing as well as national tasks such as Falklands and Carribean. A handful of Destroyers will NOT cover all Theaters, just not enough units. When the CVN's come to be deployed there may not be enough viable Fleet to put a combined Fleet to sea with it's Defence and supply train. You will get more low level work from a few advanced OPV's than one almighty Destroyer. I would recommend reading Nick Child's " Future of Britian's Navy". It's a little bit dated but the genesis of current difficulties are exposed. The final global question is,that there are countries out there with the ability to launch nuclear warheads, and is it safe to allow them think, that we think, they haven't the bottle?

  27. #95
    C/S Galloglass's Avatar
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    I'm sure there isn't one of them out there without the "bottle" Ancient.....That's what I think irrespective of what they think about what "we" think.

  28. #96
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    Just to put it into perspective, you could get 20 P61's for the price of one Type 45 destroyer.
    If it is about showing the flag this is what counts. I don't see any major air threats in the Caribbean or off the Horn of Africa. This the role is just what a P61 is designed to do.

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  30. #97
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    For some reason they are deploying Dauntless to the Southern Ocean which could be for some months.

  31. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Just to put it into perspective, you could get 20 P61's for the price of one Type 45 destroyer.
    If it is about showing the flag this is what counts. I don't see any major air threats in the Caribbean or off the Horn of Africa. This the role is just what a P61 is designed to do.
    I agree and disagree - showing the flag is about, literally, showing the flag, which can be done as well by a £50m OPV as by a £1bn AAW destroyer, however it also means 'showing what the flag can do'. A £1bn AAW destroyer does that quite well, as does a USN 100,000 ton Aircraft Carrier - as anyone who's ever seen one in port will attest.

    You send an OPV and the receiving national says 'thats nice...'. you send an 8,000 ton destroyer and they say ' that is tasty, and decking huge...'. you send a 100,000 ton aircraft carrier and they say 'jesus ****ing Christ, look at the ****ing size of that thing - its bigger than the ****ing Death Star!'

    Sometimes the size of the envelope is a large part of the message.

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  33. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    For some reason they are deploying Dauntless to the Southern Ocean which could be for some months.
    The FI patrol, it's not the first time a 45 has done the job.

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    If the UK started having actual competition and stopped feeding BAe whatever they wanted they might be able to afford more ships.

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