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  • #91
    Being honest, I don't think other ranks pay is too bad. It is an entry level wage and you wouldn't get much more in the civi world for joining a company with no qualifications (you'd get less). We often hear about those on family income supplement and the likes at private rank but if you can't afford a family in your twenties, don't have one!
    While we might be in agreement on this , its not how its been seen by those on the inside and those selling the shortfalls. Society is now about instant gratification and keeping up with the jonses with the majority of people wanting what others have without realising that material wealth is acquired over years as opposed to on signing on to a job.

    A/Sea Bloggs sees PO Smith driving a new car and reckons he should have the same , but over looks that PO Jones has 21 years service and three ranks ahead of him. This to me is the majority of the issue.

    A/Sea Bloggs then reckons that he is worth more and decides to leave , goes to the Daily Rag and tells them how much he is aggrieved that he can't have what PO Jones has and leaves out the rank and service bit!

    PO Jones see what ex PO Smith has on the outside without the hardship.. overlooks the fact that he joined the NS when no one else would look at him.. out the gate with his 21 years of experience.... and gets the job he wants and then cribs that some fcuker has cut his pension entitlement.

    Jaysus....
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by na grohmit� View Post
      It could at least be comparable with the payment of the entry level civil servant who works in an office mon-fri 37 hours a week. It should definitely be more than the guy working the fryer at McDonalds.
      A clerical officer with three years service earns 26k. Also the entry level grade. A three star private earns a few grand more after the same service. There seems to be a lot of misinformation doing the rounds about what actual pay is. It's all there available to view on the published pay scales.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
        While we might be in agreement on this , its not how its been seen by those on the inside and those selling the shortfalls. Society is now about instant gratification and keeping up with the jonses with the majority of people wanting what others have without realising that material wealth is acquired over years as opposed to on signing on to a job.

        A/Sea Bloggs sees PO Smith driving a new car and reckons he should have the same , but over looks that PO Jones has 21 years service and three ranks ahead of him. This to me is the majority of the issue.

        A/Sea Bloggs then reckons that he is worth more and decides to leave , goes to the Daily Rag and tells them how much he is aggrieved that he can't have what PO Jones has and leaves out the rank and service bit!

        PO Jones see what ex PO Smith has on the outside without the hardship.. overlooks the fact that he joined the NS when no one else would look at him.. out the gate with his 21 years of experience.... and gets the job he wants and then cribs that some fcuker has cut his pension entitlement.

        Jaysus....
        I can't agree more. I've seen A/Seamen driving around the base in near new cars and actually getting paid quite well considering tech pay and sea pay but still giving out about how badly paid they are. I'm quite comfortable in my civi job now but it took a good number of years climbing the greasy pole to get here. Most of my formative years were spent (in a good job that required a degree) with earnings that barely covered my rent, a few pints and keeping a ten year old car on the road. No instant gratification but it was all the more sweet when things eventually turned around regarding pay etc.

        I'd often wonder does the grass turn out to be greener for those who leave early with no qualifications before they reach NCO rank?

        Note: I have mentioned sea pay and I do appreciate that this requires significant personal sacrifice from the sailor involved. It's hard earned.

        Comment


        • #94
          Examiner article

          The Naval Service has contacted members of its reserve in an attempt to lure them into full-time service to fill posts left vacant due to a major crisis in retention and recruitment.




          The Naval Service has contacted members of its reserve in an attempt to lure them into full-time service to fill posts left vacant due to a major crisis in retention and recruitment.


          File photo.
          Reserves have been used in recent months to ensure adequate manpower levels when ships go to sea, but this latest move is seen as another indication that the Government still is not addressing the root cause of the manpower crisis: Poor pay and conditions.

          The Defence Forces press office said it currently has 234 reservists who were “recently contacted to ascertain their interest in joining as a permanent member in the future”.

          PDForra, which represents enlisted personnel, expressed its surprise at the move.

          “This is just another window-dressing exercise,” said PDForra president Mark Keane. “The financial rewards will not match what these people already have in the private sector, so I’d be surprised if they get many expressions of interest.

          The Department of Defence needs to bite the bullet and address the real issues of why people are leaving in droves and why they can’t get enough new recruits in.

          PDForra general secretary Gerard Guinan said he was also taken aback by the move, as those in the reserve who wanted to join the permanent staff were well aware of how they could do this through the Defence Forces general recruitment schemes.

          “They’re just clutching at straws,” he said. “They’d [the department] be better placed to focus on the retention of personnel by offering decent terms of employment.”

          Defence Forces members are the worst-paid public servants. Last August, the minister of state with responsibility for defence, Paul Kehoe, ordered senior commanders to try to tempt former officers back into service to counter the continuing brain drain in their ranks.

          In particular, he wanted to plug gaps which have appeared in specialist areas in the Army, Naval Service, and Air Corps by offering former officers three-year contracts to rejoin.

          It has yet to be seen if the move was successful, and some people doubt that former pilots would ever be tempted to sign up again as they’re paid far better in the private sector.

          For example, an Air Corps commandant with 15 years’ experience would expect to earn just over €85,000 a year. However, a pilot with similar experience working for a commercial airline such as Ryanair could expect an annual pay packet of between €150,000 and €200,000 a year.
          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by na grohmit� View Post
            It could at least be comparable with the payment of the entry level civil servant who works in an office mon-fri 37 hours a week. It should definitely be more than the guy working the fryer at McDonalds.
            The lowly Clerical Officer starts at approx 23,000 Euro P. A., however with long service at that rank, it can spiral to 39,000 Euro P.A. I think in the overall that Seaman ranks would trail by about 2000 Euro P.A. The crucial aspect of any job are the level of conditions and services available. The service man needs to know that the State will see to the Welfare of himself and his family. He needs to be sure that his sea/shore ratio is not a lottery or the fit of his face.When married the State should provide his accommodation either in barracks or by direct provision in local townships. It would be no harm if they followed the systems provided by the next door neighbour for their servicemen. A housed Serviceman is more likely to stay.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              The lowly Clerical Officer starts at approx 23,000 Euro P. A., however with long service at that rank, it can spiral to 39,000 Euro P.A. I think in the overall that Seaman ranks would trail by about 2000 Euro P.A. The crucial aspect of any job are the level of conditions and services available. The service man needs to know that the State will see to the Welfare of himself and his family. He needs to be sure that his sea/shore ratio is not a lottery or the fit of his face.When married the State should provide his accommodation either in barracks or by direct provision in local townships. It would be no harm if they followed the systems provided by the next door neighbour for their servicemen. A housed Serviceman is more likely to stay.
              See link to 2018 scales.



              A seaman on point 7 of the scale will 'spiral' to 36k plus. That's not too far off a clerical officer and is still the lowest functioning grade of the DF. This doesn't include any other allowances or pay. The average Irish salary is actually about 36k so the DF is hitting this bar at the lowest rank (I'm discounting recruits, O/S's and cadets).

              This is not badly paid and is pay for someone who in most cases will have the leaving cert as their highest formal qualification. If the A/B upskills, they will most likely receive more pay and rank.

              McDonalds staff will earn 20k per year so comparing this to an A/B's pay is at worst making up information and at best, materially skewing the facts.

              I'd also be of the mind that a clerical officer on nearly 40k is overpaid.

              I do however agree that there are issues regarding housing and assisting with paying rent or a mortgage may help here. There are also major issues with relation to time being spent at sea by many ranks. Too many being asked to do much due to the deluge of manpower and too many sea dodgers not going out at all.

              Comment


              • #97
                I'd often wonder does the grass turn out to be greener for those who leave early with no qualifications before they reach NCO rank?
                My own case , 30 years on, within three years of leaving I was earning 50 quid a week more than I was as an A/Sea.... but I didn't have the job security that went with the DF.

                Note: I have mentioned sea pay and I do appreciate that this requires significant personal sacrifice from the sailor involved. It's hard earned
                should have read the small print on the end of the contract....'will be expected to go to sea'... the clue being in Navy!!! Its part of the job, yes it could be run more fairly.. but you join the navy to go to sea......fails me to see people bitching about the basic requirement of the job especially at junior level.

                Mate of mine did his recruit training and never saw the base again, spent his entire service on two different ships... some like it.. some don't
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                  not getting screwed with ever shifting dates for training.
                  God, I remember the days when training dates were fixed in December/January for the following year. And woe betide anyone who tried to change them. Every weekend up to camp that was of any importance was mapped out, dates were set for ARPs, fitness tests etc.

                  But the reorg of 2013 happened and the idea of planning anything even 2 months in advance was absolutely alien to the PDF (not taking a dig at the PDF, just a different mentality). We would talk about the need for set dates to PDF who couldn't give any guarantees beyond the next week. Often you would only find out what PDF instructor you were getting when they actually showed up, mainly because they could be pulled for any job that came up and the RDF was way down the priority list.

                  It is just a different mentality and one of the major failings of the re-org that the mentalities could not mesh - RDF need to know dates well in advance in order to book time off work etc., PDF need to be flexible in order to deal with any situations that arise. RDF get angry about training dates being constantly moved and PDF get angry about the numbers showing up to that training.

                  The mentalities cannot work with each other. It is not a bad mark on either side, just the way it is.
                  Last edited by Poiuyt; 19 October 2018, 17:43.

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                  • #99
                    Ok, remember when the pay was cut for new entrants ?

                    You could have a few weeks less service and be earning less approx €10 less a week doing exactly the same job

                    How can anyone compare being a sailor and being a clerical officer

                    It is about pay but also conditions:

                    Having to sleep on ships that are alongside

                    Leave being cancelled

                    24 hour duties

                    Putting to sea in the roughest seas in the world
                    Your 2 years ashore not being 2 years ashore

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Ok, remember when the pay was cut for new entrants ?

                      You could have a few weeks less service and be earning less approx €10 less a week doing exactly the same job

                      How can anyone compare being a sailor and being a clerical officer

                      It is about pay but also conditions:

                      Having to sleep on ships that are alongside

                      Leave being cancelled

                      24 hour duties

                      Putting to sea in the roughest seas in the world
                      Your 2 years ashore not being 2 years ashore
                      Joining the DF is a vocation however. Going by the tale of woe above, should our sailors not be paid 60k a pop? The conditions definitely need to change but I think the pay beyond a marginal increase is right where it should be for an AB.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                        Joining the DF is a vocation however. Going by the tale of woe above, should our sailors not be paid 60k a pop? The conditions definitely need to change but I think the pay beyond a marginal increase is right where it should be for an AB.
                        It is and that is due to some none monetary perks. Be it a hard challenging job, service to the State, fighting drug importation, sports Wednesdays, generous leave....... however it needs to at least at the races with comparable jobs in both public and private sector

                        Comment


                        • Part of the deal has to be personnel (individually and collectively) are fairly and well treated by junior and senior management and by Government.

                          Be it in administration, in promotion, selection for overseas, postings, payment in a timely manner, duty rosters, cancelling non essential ops as they cannot be met, ensuring there are adequate personnel, that Accomodiation is to a basic standard, that personnel are sufficiently trained and equipped to ensure that they are not put in harms way unnecessarily.



                          That those who choose the vocation, the “life less ordinary”, that in some cases make the ultimate sacrifice, are not taken advantage of by the State that they have sworn an oath to be faithful to.


                          It is a vocation and perks are there but they aren’t guaranteed.

                          Not many jobs in this land where you book time off work, you book a holiday, you have to ask work can you leave the country, have to give work your address while away and that it can be cancelled at any time (including while you are away)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            It is and that is due to some none monetary perks. Be it a hard challenging job, service to the State, fighting drug importation, sports Wednesdays, generous leave....... however it needs to at least at the races with comparable jobs in both public and private sector
                            The customs maritime unit are also on clerical officer pay and do the job of fighting drugs importation. They also get paid an annual allowance for this duty.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • Having to sleep on ships that are alongside
                              Absolute bollocks...its always been done. the conditions on ships are/were better than the base. The bitch being that the DF moved away from SLI and guys got used to living out. Just because they can't afford to live out, the whinge about the accomadation thats is provided. Its a reality for a lot of people on lower wages that accomadation is not priced as they wish. If you live out in Haulbowline and are not resident in Cobh.. you need a car...more money.....if they add up all they want to be paid for maybe they should reconsider their career path.


                              24 hour duties
                              because of the three watch system on ships.. thats the way it is and again always has been

                              How can anyone compare being a sailor and being a clerical officer
                              People make choices, public service pay rates were tainted by benchmarking hence the need for allowances..PDA is an allowance a junior public servant serving in the DF gets for days spent at sea!
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by na grohmit� View Post
                                The customs maritime unit are also on clerical officer pay and do the job of fighting drugs importation. They also get paid an annual allowance for this duty.
                                https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j...K7G44vAk2mRrCV
                                Doesn’t say what the rate is, it is also an annual allowance

                                I note that “one operation required the staff to remain at sea for a continuous period of nineteen days”


                                I don’t begrudge them it but it’s apples and oranges.



                                Compare to PDA



                                PDA could be much higher than the Revenue Allowance but the job and T&C’s are extremely different



                                How do both compare to the private sector

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