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  1. #1
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    manning levels, the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    you say this every time, and you always put it at the top o the 'whats needed?' list - but its not true.

    in Irish EPV/MRV would (in the context of the current op) go to the Med in April and stay there until October, it would port in Italy and Malta and its crew would rotate.

    6 month, 12 month, 18 month deployments are relatively routine in Navies - hell, even Submarines can do 11 month deployments (the crew must look like uncooked chips after that...).

    an Irish EPV/MRV that was part of a relatively modern, 9 ship fleet would spend the overwhelming majority of its life on overseas duty - 6 months in the Med/Indian Ocean, exercises with the Army/AC both at home and with EUBG, defence diplomacy, support for UN/EU ops, humanitarian relief in the Carribean...

    the idea that the EPV/MRV is a fisheries protection ship that will get dobbed to do other things once a decade utterly, utterly wrong.
    To be fair I'm not sure about 12/18 month deployments, I mean aren't there news reports about issues with the RN hulls having moved to 9 month deployments (among other issues), and even the USN has paid a price for extended tours in terms of support and maintenance issues.

    That being said I totally agree about what the EPV/MRV should be used for if we go down that route rather than stay in EEZ operations.

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  3. #2
    Closed account hptmurphy's Avatar
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    an Irish EPV/MRV that was part of a relatively modern, 9 ship fleet would spend the overwhelming majority of its life on overseas duty - 6 months in the Med/Indian Ocean, exercises with the Army/AC both at home and with EUBG, defence diplomacy, support for UN/EU ops, humanitarian relief in the Carribean..

    Should... being the word , not would!

    You are assuming that we will have a 9 ship Navy , if we ever get around to MRV / EPV. While the numbers look good on paper over the next five years,a third of that fleet, will be all but 35 years old and needing replacement, another two units will be approaching 21/23 years service.

    personally I think it will be hulls in the water to supplement what we already have in a standard OPV fit rather than elusive one off builds and Blue / Green Ops machines.

    And for all that bombed up stuff that gets bandied about, thats Frigates, not OPVs, frigates need speed in excess of thirty knots to be effective,some combination of Gas Turbines and requiring at least double the shaft horse power of an OPV to get it over the 30kt mark, all that will take either buying a FREMM off the shelf or a build we have no idea of.

    So 90m to 110 OPVs will be the future for some considerable time.
    Pay them properly.....and they will come!

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  5. #3
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Why does the NS primarilly need bigger ships? Because Irish home waters are now bigger in area and more challenging in terms of conditions

    Why does the NS primarilly need more vessels (apart from replacing existing hulls)? Because Irish home water are under policed (and they are now much bigger).

    The NS is unable to retain people with 21 days patrols (I've seen somewhere that those are now broken up to give a bit more time at home), when they are between patrols they are on X hrs NTM at practically all times, when the ship is in dock the crew are involved in maintenance.

    So P70 goes to the Med with a crew for say 60 days and then the crew rotate. What will the crew be doing when they get back? Going back to sea, doing duties at the base, being at X hrs NTM.

    The NS can't retain enough people to crew 8 ships (and provide for rotation).

    Larger navies can deploy a ship for 6-12 months, rotate crews, put a ship into refit for 12 months etc and give guaranteed leave.

    The DF by the way are trying to modularise longer courses so people aren't away from home for say 9 months of the C&S Cse. They are also offering something like a job share for overseas (eg on a 6 month tour, you could do 3 months and then someone replaces you for the remaining 3 months).

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  7. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post

    The NS can't retain enough people to crew 8 ships (and provide for rotation).

    Larger navies can deploy a ship for 6-12 months, rotate crews, put a ship into refit for 12 months etc and give guaranteed leave.

    The DF by the way are trying to modularise longer courses so people aren't away from home for say 9 months of the C&S Cse. They are also offering something like a job share for overseas (eg on a 6 month tour, you could do 3 months and then someone replaces you for the remaining 3 months).
    Retention of personnel is down to personnel management and realistic deployment ,with rotation in theatre, every 4-6 months. My class had a six month CSCE and a 3month SSCse, some Senior officers did not value that Command and Staff Course at full value, certificates were eventually issued, reluctantly, much later by brown envelope post. That was 1976. Glad to say it produced a few Generals eventually.
    Assuming the Flagship is replaced by a larger vessel then that vessel should be planned around certain capabilities such as undertaking Flagship/Command duties, ability to resupply Army/Naval stores by collecting military/naval stores from overseas, ability to transport a Coy strength in relative comfort, ability to act as a humanitarian/ hospital ship in pop-up crises, and ability to Defend and Protect itself and adjacent attachments.
    It should also have a working flight deck to handle stores ,and personnel, with suitable cargo lifts for the former. What that ship will look like will only emerge from Builders proposals taking into account all tasks envisaged. We are peeing in the wind trying to second guess each other until we see such proposals.

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  9. #5
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Longer deployments and even less time off between patrols isn't going to improve the situation

  10. #6
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    They will have to just raise the establishment figures, pay people extra to be away, and involve the reserve, if it still exists after all their messing with it.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  12. #7
    Corporal The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    P64 Confirmation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran Marum View Post
    MINISTER'S DAIL ANSWERS Tuesday 21st June 2016

    Yesterday I signed off on the commission for a fourth vessel. The UK contractors will start building that fourth ship in the next few weeks.
    Thanks to Kieran Marum

    Expect something on DoD, DF, and Naval Service websites shortly.

    Irish Times, RTE, and The Examiner thereafter.

    Agree LE Seamus Heaney has to be the early favourite...
    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 22nd June 2016 at 16:35. Reason: Seamus Heaney
    Semper et ubique Fidelis

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  14. #8
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    They will have to just raise the establishment figures, pay people extra to be away, and involve the reserve, if it still exists after all their messing with it.
    Raising the establishment just means more jobs unfilled (more double and triple jobbing)
    Outside DF control
    FLR is currently being used to keep ships at sea

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  16. #9
    C/S Galloglass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Raising the establishment just means more jobs unfilled (more double and triple jobbing)
    Outside DF control
    FLR is currently being used to keep ships at sea
    I think Turkey means hire MORE sailors Dev.

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  18. #10
    Corporal The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    Had no idea DeV that things were as stressed as this. Obvious radical and comprehensive reform is needed as a matter of urgency.

    This might be totally naïve, but would there be any prospect of the temporary secondment of 'fusiliers' PDF/RDF from other branches to do some of the heavy lifting and ease the most acute effects. Army/AC Captains to receive the honorofic 'Major' while on base/aboard etc.
    Semper et ubique Fidelis

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  20. #11
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglass View Post
    I think Turkey means hire MORE sailors Dev.
    That is the strength.

    They are leaving faster than they can be replaced

    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Had no idea DeV that things were as stressed as this. Obvious radical and comprehensive reform is needed as a matter of urgency.

    This might be totally naïve, but would there be any prospect of the temporary secondment of 'fusiliers' PDF/RDF from other branches to do some of the heavy lifting and ease the most acute effects. Army/AC Captains to receive the honorofic 'Major' while on base/aboard etc.
    AFAIK the FLR haven't been called up permanently, but they have been called up all the same

    AFAIK it is tech's (watchkeepers, ERAs etc) that the main issues are with the people that take a lot of time and experience to train

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  22. #12
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    maybe if ns lowered the eyesight requirement from an almost 20/20 requirement it would increase numbers. i know of 3 young lads, one of whom has had a life long dream to join up, only to be rejected due to not quiet meeting criteria, and it galls him to see all ranks on ns facebook wearing glasses.

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  24. #13
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    I mean people Dev, the size of the NS has to get bigger, by at least 200 bodies...
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  25. #14
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    I mean people Dev, the size of the NS has to get bigger, by at least 200 bodies...
    Yes strength (ie actual people) as opposed to establishment (how many they should have)

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  27. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    This might be totally naïve, but would there be any prospect of the temporary secondment of 'fusiliers' PDF/RDF from other branches to do some of the heavy lifting and ease the most acute effects. Army/AC Captains to receive the honorofic 'Major' while on base/aboard etc.
    Navy needs qualified Navigators, marine engineers, and electronic/electrical engineers. Glasses don't disbar seagoing but colour blindness limits employment to the Q side only. Most army officers have never been at sea. The concept is kind but naive.

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  29. #16
    CQMS Tempest's Avatar
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    To put all it's aircraft in the air the AC needs less then 50 bodies.

    To put 8 ships at sea requires 8 times that number.

    Yet there is not that much difference in their establishments. How it can require 850 people to run 23 relatively small aircraft (with civvies added on as well) is surely a problem. Dropping the AC establishment and increase the NS establishment pro rata would surely be sensible?

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  31. #17
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
    To put all it's aircraft in the air the AC needs less then 50 bodies.

    To put 8 ships at sea requires 8 times that number.

    Yet there is not that much difference in their establishments. How it can require 850 people to run 23 relatively small aircraft (with civvies added on as well) is surely a problem. Dropping the AC establishment and increase the NS establishment pro rata would surely be sensible?
    Just over actually, but it may take 3 times that number to maintain them (possibly increase to allow for 24/7 cover), there are limitations on pilots and they can't fly an aircraft 24/7 so you need to increase that. Add in admin of units, stores, air base, ATC, ground handling, catering, fire, GoH, leave etc and the numbers quickly add up.

    Is there not enough balance of ops -V- non-ops ? Probably
    Should ops be the priority? Definitely
    Room to manoeuvre? Probably

    But possibly not 200 jobs.

  32. #18
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    If they expand the navy I guarantee they'll keep the Df Manning ceiling and just bin an infantry coy or 2.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  34. #19
    Closed account hptmurphy's Avatar
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    This might be totally naïve, but would there be any prospect of the temporary secondment of 'fusiliers' PDF/RDF from other branches to do some of the heavy lifting and ease the most acute effects. Army/AC Captains to receive the honorofic 'Major' while on base/aboard etc.
    Yeah..and we'll get vets to work in hospitals to clear back logs!
    Pay them properly.....and they will come!

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  36. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Navy needs qualified Navigators, marine engineers, and electronic/electrical engineers. Glasses don't disbar seagoing but colour blindness limits employment to the Q side only. Most army officers have never been at sea. The concept is kind but naive.
    Let the secondees do base duties etc and let the sailors do the sailing.

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  38. #21
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    I believe all the catering in UK military bases is done by civie companies .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

  39. #22
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    Sailor's Career

    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Let the secondees do base duties etc and let the sailors do the sailing.
    The nature of a seagoing career is a cycle of shipboard assignments followed by a period ashore, The seagoing replacements section is a vital part of keeping ships manned, and provides training staffs, unscheduled reliefs at sea, courses, overseas DF appointments. It is untenable to have someone at sea forever. Numbers can be met by, having for a period of two years, with a review, a recruiting open door policy to get 4/6 fully trained classes of sea personnel in that period. You keep numbers up by continually topping up NFA's from a panel to achieve a final output of 200 sea persons.
    The male/female ratio policy needs to be applied sensibly to ensure ability of ships to function socially, domestically, with fair sea/shore ratios for all.

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  41. #23
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    If we had waited a few days would we have saved a few million?

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  43. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    If we had waited a few days would we have saved a few million?
    None of us will save a penny (or cent), we'll all pay through the nose for this folly.

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  45. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    I believe all the catering in UK military bases is done by civie companies .
    True and a lot of the staff running them chefs etc are ex BA

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