manning levels, the future.

[DeV]

The DOD must be rubbing their hands with glee. Here is the perfect opportunity to put the kaibosh on any more new ships. Sure they can't man the ones they have so there is no business case for anymore

I disagree.

If the DF plays this right.... the NS will be unable to fulfil KPIs (some of which are in MoUs with other agencies (eg the SFPA)).

The issues are well known why the NS has insufficient personnel and therefore DoD get the blame.

If they haven't the skills then it is our fault. Given that in times of yore crews were trained to man 100's of corvettes and 151 River Class Frigates during WW11. They mostly came from Banks, shops , farms, and schools. The NSR on call up are captive, for God's sake, train them in all branches and get them sailing within crews and continue with ON THE JOB Training. No first tripper on cruise boats has an idea but by the end of a week they are starting up, cleaning weed traps, docking, and following charts safely. Give the NSR a 3 month course and they could operate on their own with Departmental mentors for another few months.

Except some of those jobs would require a number of years of training (so unless they already have the skills that it out), they would need employment protection, extra mandays and an increase in rate of pay (up to their civvy pay at least).

Don't think that matters to them. They already made successful cases for 2 extra ships knowing there was no establishment to crew them, let alone strength. New equipment mean nice junkets for DoD staff. Every bit of foreign supplied equipment on the ships requires a foreign trip by DoD staff to that suppliers location for "negotiations" (or in other words a factory tour, wined and dined by supplier). Its a gravy train they would be sad to see go.

Not sure about DoD but there was an officer and a NCO based in the shipyard for the duration of the build (I think).

The DoJ/GS structure has always been clearly set out with Gardai at the top of the chain. In stations, civil servants answer to Garda sergeants and inspectors. It reflects the priority of the task at hand. Policing first, then administration. Of course the admins still have their little empires, only opening the stationary store between morning teabreaks, when the average garda is out of the station on duty. In Garda HQ, the majority of office holders are Sergeants, though this is changing to civil servant grades at HEO level (third step on the civil service ladder) where no statute prevents the job from being done by a non sworn officer.
DF HQ shares a location with the DoD. Garda HQ does not share a location with the DoJ. This seems to mean the day to day policing of the state is not hindered by office politics. Perhaps the DF could learn from this? If the Gen Sec of the DoD wants to earwig on defence matters, he just needs to open his office door. If his DoJ colleague wanted to do likewise, he has to cross the city, and get past the very efficient gate policemen(and women) at Garda HQ, who leave NOBODY in without an appointment.
Either Kick the DoD out of Newbridge, or move DFHQ out of Newbridge. I'm sure there is an idle building in DFTC, McKee or Brugha that could house them all.

I suppose with AGS there can’t be CS or political influence to many aspects of the job for legal reasons.

The big difference is that the Commissioner has full authority over the Garda budget.

The DF & DoD have to work together or we might as well disband both.

Much of DFHQ isn’t in Newbridge.

[Truck Driver]

NSR Pot NCO Cse did that as a paper based exercise for the Med for OP PONTUS

Was very impressed when I heard that

[Auldsod]

I often wonder if the NSR could provide more value to the NS if we were allowed to train in Comms and logistics again. I think filling a mech's role would be too far but with the right courses, the other two branches would certainly be doable. Would let individual reservists play to their strengths too.

[batterysgt]

It would require a change to cs4 and a very big training commitment from NSR and PDF training staff. I don't think it will happen given their personnel issues, they just tied up to ships..

[A/TEL]

I often wonder if the NSR could provide more value to the NS if we were allowed to train in Comms and logistics again. I think filling a mech's role would be too far but with the right courses, the other two branches would certainly be doable. Would let individual reservists play to their strengths too.

Training for Logs is possible.

Training as a Commop for NSR personnel would not be possible.

It requires 20 weeks or full time training + on the job training of 6 months complete with taskbook.

This is a minimum to qualify as an NS Commop.

[hptmurphy]

Might as well put a ' For Sale ' sign up over the two and by the end of the summer the second Peacock will be tied up as its only been kept in service for inshore work.

As the man said it hasn't happened since the corvettes but that was for different reasons other than man power, just the actual cost and risks of operation given the condition of the ships and the service at the time.

Ireland is not unique in the situation it finds itself in with the UKRN being in the exact same position.

Again while not in the ethic of the defence forces , serious industrial action has to be given serious consideration. It has now become blatantly obvious that current government and thinking across all circles in the Dail being to all but shut down the DF by attrition.

The activation of reservists is absolute pie in the sky, not with holding the training issues, the people in the NSR do not have the protection of employment legislation that would allow then to volunteer with impunity.

The fact that two ships are now tied up now means that there aren't the people available to drop them into roles to fill out the ranks and the knock on effect being the experience will not be there to training up coming people.

A/TEL.... without being disparaging , probably enough years under your belt to go... how much more will you and your colleagues absorb before you are pushed out the door? When this core of people are gone, who picks up the mantle and do we have to tie up further ships before the whole thing becomes unfeasible.

One government in 9 years have undone what took 40 years from 1970 to achieve. I'm not sure that a recovery is possible from this until basics are at least restored. They don't even have to hand out cash, just remove things like pension levy, commitment to pay pension in first contract, get rid of USC to those on lower rates and remove PDA from the tax brackets. They can do things like this with the DF as they are outside of the norm when it comes to terms and conditions.

By doing this it puts money in peoples pockets and will then mean they needn't build the accomadation needed ashore as people will have the means to live out.

[DeV]

This has been caused by all Governments over the last 11-12 years

The pension levy and USC can’t be removed just for the DF.

I remember watching a Primetime programme on the retention crisis in the NS in the early 00’s, but the NS was bigger and the fleet was smaller. One of the major issues was people not getting their 2 years ashore.

The NSR & FLR are already being used.

[Smithy]

Again while not in the ethic of the defence forces , serious industrial action has to be given serious consideration.

That is dangerous nonsense.

[apod]

Again while not in the ethic of the defence forces , serious industrial action has to be given serious consideration.

The rock we would perish on. We are the most trusted by the people of all public bodies. That reputation and trust would evaporate overnight and we would never get it back should we go down that route.

No matter how tempting.

[Auldsod]

It would require a change to cs4 and a very big training commitment from NSR and PDF training staff. I don't think it will happen given their personnel issues, they just tied up to ships..

I agree with you to be fair. Resources in neither the PDF or RDF at present for this.

Training for Logs is possible.

Training as a Commop for NSR personnel would not be possible.

It requires 20 weeks or full time training + on the job training of 6 months complete with taskbook.

This is a minimum to qualify as an NS Commop.

I don't think the idea that you would get an NSR seaman up to the same level as NS Commop was ever going to hold water. I mean more in that they could assist in parts of some watches. Obviously in a far more limited capacity. I don't claim to have great experience in that area so maybe it is unworkable but certainly food for thought.

Ireland is not unique in the situation it finds itself in with the UKRN being in the exact same position.

The activation of reservists is absolute pie in the sky, not with holding the training issues, the people in the NSR do not have the protection of employment legislation that would allow then to volunteer with impunity.

Even with protection of employment and if the administrative challenges of allowing reservists more man days could be overcome, I don't think this is situation for a reserve to solve. Look at the RNR, they complete their annual training and deploy full time with the RN for defined well planned periods. I couldn't just walk into my employer even with employment protection telling them that I'm heading out on a three week patrol because the NS is stuck for bodies on a given ship. Even with protections, you would be decimating goodwill with your employer.

The only NSR members who could go out long term are the young ones from 18-23 who have far more freedom with their time. Problem is that if they were to go out on ships for far more days than at present (6 months to a year FT duty), they may as well be PDF....

[hptmurphy]

The pension levy and USC can’t be removed just for the DF.

Why?. If you introduce clear levevls at which people are exempt and then look at specific occupations , takinging into account that people serve off shore or out of the country, they can be exempted from certain taxes...ask Denis O'bRIEN, HE SEEMS TO HAVE A HANDLE ON IT.

The rock we would perish on. We are the most trusted by the people of all public bodies. That reputation and trust would evaporate overnight and we would never get it back should we go down that route.

No matter how tempting.

That is dangerous nonsense.

I think there is a slight element of delusion here, while the DF are beyond reproach in what they do, most people actually give a shit. The hearing Claims besmirched that reputation to the point where when you talk to any average Joe Public its always that one thing that comes to mind.

Someone in the NS made the decison to tie up to ships, probably protest in its finest form, we haven't the people , we can't do the job ! Some in the army should take note.... stop trying to do everything you did 10 years ago with more and better paid people.

Your leaders need to stop crucifying their own in order to make their own careers look good.

WE all know the army won't go on strike but it needs to highlight that there are taskings that realistically can't be completed.

Some years ago , the Cav School offloaded the AML fleet by telling the higher ups we don't have the people to train drivers for AMLs any more. It had to be conceded that if we couldn't train drivers , we could no longer operate the vehicle.

You don't have to walk out the gate to highlight how ineffective the machine has become, but the machine has to say no more can we do x,y,z until we have a ,b and c in place.

The dangerous nonsense is that 8500 citizens of this country are actually in danger from the system they work in, apart from the physical danger from partaking in evolutions that were previously carried out with greater safety margins, there are young people living on the bread line because their leaders will not support them, and the psychological and mental toll has yet to be fully appreciated.

I couldn't just walk into my employer even with employment protection telling them that I'm heading out on a three week patrol because the NS is stuck for bodies on a given ship. Even with protections, you would be decimating goodwill with your employer.

other countries do, because military service is take seriously and law makers are prepared to stand behind service persons.... can't is not a valid argument,u

[na grohmiti]

Training for Logs is possible.

Training as a Commop for NSR personnel would not be possible.

It requires 20 weeks or full time training + on the job training of 6 months complete with taskbook.

This is a minimum to qualify as an NS Commop.

Why does it take that long? In days of Old a radio officer may have had lengthy training, but that was because most signalling at sea was done by morse, and the only language was the international signal code book(and Marconi had a monopoly). How long does the average civvy seafarer spend learning GMDSS? I can't see Arklow shipping send a crewman off for 20 weeks to learn how to use VHF, when Eddie English can do it for a yachtsman in 3 evenings or over one long day? NMCI can do it over 10 days/3 weeks. Surely if NSR had at minimum GMDSS general operator completed they would be of some practical use?
There was a time when the NS would not recognise a Civvy Deck cert of Competency if it was held by a member of the NSR. They got past that.

[batterysgt]

I agree with you to be fair. Resources in neither the PDF or RDF at present for this.



I don't think the idea that you would get an NSR seaman up to the same level as NS Commop was ever going to hold water. I mean more in that they could assist in parts of some watches. Obviously in a far more limited capacity. I don't claim to have great experience in that area so maybe it is unworkable but certainly food for thought.



Even with protection of employment and if the administrative challenges of allowing reservists more man days could be overcome, I don't think this is situation for a reserve to solve. Look at the RNR, they complete their annual training and deploy full time with the RN for defined well planned periods. I couldn't just walk into my employer even with employment protection telling them that I'm heading out on a three week patrol because the NS is stuck for bodies on a given ship. Even with protections, you would be decimating goodwill with your employer.

The only NSR members who could go out long term are the young ones from 18-23 who have far more freedom with their time. Problem is that if they were to go out on ships for far more days than at present (6 months to a year FT duty), they may as well be PDF....

Most RDF are not trained up to the same standards as their PDF counterparts. Just look at Recruit training, 4 weeks vs 16-19 weeks. And then they going onto complete their 2-3* training. Unless you have external qualifications/education (IT/ medical most of us can't be used as equals to PDF.

Question Auldsod, can you replace a person onboard anavy ship and carry out there full range of duties? I would think not, nothing personal. It's the same for me I know I can't carry out the full range of duties of my PDF colleagues but I can do some.

[Auldsod]

other countries do, because military service is take seriously and law makers are prepared to stand behind service persons.... can't is not a valid argument,u

It's fair enough being able to take the time off but the problem is when the next round of promotions come up on work or you find yourself redundant. It's more nuanced than just making laws unforunately.

[A/TEL]

Why does it take that long? In days of Old a radio officer may have had lengthy training, but that was because most signalling at sea was done by morse, and the only language was the international signal code book(and Marconi had a monopoly). How long does the average civvy seafarer spend learning GMDSS? I can't see Arklow shipping send a crewman off for 20 weeks to learn how to use VHF, when Eddie English can do it for a yachtsman in 3 evenings or over one long day? NMCI can do it over 10 days/3 weeks. Surely if NSR had at minimum GMDSS general operator completed they would be of some practical use?
There was a time when the NS would not recognise a Civvy Deck cert of Competency if it was held by a member of the NSR. They got past that.

A Naval Commop is not just trained in GMDSS systems and not just in VHF.

Some of the systems:

Marine VHF
Marine MF/HF
Satellite Systems
Military UHF/VHF
Military MF/HF
Data Communications
Visual Signalling (Flags) Both Naval & International
Flashing Light (Morse)
IT
Weather
Fleetwork

There are further equipment/systems covered on the NS Commop Courses.

NS Deck Officers have a GMDSS GOC but even they are not a qualified Commop nor have the practical skills (perishable skill)

Another obstacle would be allowing access to sensitive information. The NSR would not be granted this.

The most sensible option is to upskill in the Seamans Branch as they can be fully integrated as per the SFC.

Some very good NSR personnel out there who have a lot to offer.