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  1. #76
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    It all depends on how they do this. If they move the reservist from being a member of the RDF to the PDF then yes, it is holding up an appointment etc. If this is a temporary thing i.e. they are brought up on full time service without the 28 day restriction then they are getting people in addition to establishment.

    I do not see what the reservist gets out of this other than increased sea time but then again if I was in my early 20s just starting out in the work place with no responsibilities this might just have been the thing I would have tried just to see what it was like.

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  3. #77
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    Why bother having a reserve in the first place if you can't make use of them , why do they exist then , and how do other countries make use of their reserves .
    Last edited by Laners; 18th October 2018 at 16:43.
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  5. #78
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    Why bother having a reserve in the first place if you can't make use of them , why do they exist then , and how do other countries make use of their reserves .
    They have employment protect around their reservists, where a reservist can deploy for a given amount of time and know they have a job to come back to, they are also paid retainers for various levels of commitment during the training year...where as the DF and the government her don't really give a shit, but that might change in the Naval Service now.

    Text messages have been sent out to serving members to gauge the level of interest.

    I do not see what the reservist gets out of this other than increased sea time but then again if I was in my early 20s just starting out in the work place with no responsibilities this might just have been the thing I would have tried just to see what it was like.
    If the employment protection legislation was in place a lot of guys would probably give it a go just to get away from their norm! If someone said to me right now , would I take a six month contract...I'd jump at it but couldn't afford the pay cut.

    The DF have really shot themselves in the foot by not securing the employment protection legislation, only took 15 years to materialize.
    Time for another break I think......

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  7. #79
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    If employment protection was STILL in place for reservists - it used to exist but was scrapped.

    Also there is no income equalization - the bills still need to be paid for the family home which is doable on the civvy street but laughable on the PDF payscale . I suspect this is not specialists they want here but ABs ? Not that they are not somewhat specialized anyway.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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  9. #80
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    Why bother having a reserve in the first place if you can't make use of them , why do they exist then , and how do other countries make use of their reserves .
    Other countries do stuff like pay the same, employment protection, paid for all training, paid mileage, paid gym membership, grat/bounty, better comms, etc etc

    They don’t restrict their reserves.... they encourage them

  10. #81
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    I suspect this is not specialists they want here but ABs ? Not that they are not somewhat specialized anyway.
    I’d say both but RDF can fill very few specialist positions

  11. #82
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    Why bother having a reserve in the first place if you can't make use of them , why do they exist then , and how do other countries make use of their reserves .
    Good question ? Who owns the answer ? The Government. That we have a reserve is laid out in the Defence Act 1954 as amended etc etc

    Reserves have been quietly used on the Green side whenever the need was there , as reservists, as there is no provision to transfer over and hold the rank under R5, R6 or old A10 ( subject to correction on that ) , and during the 80s our FCA men on long fulltime had the same problem. Application for Mandays and payments of Grats would solve your income equalization on production of payslips

    Amending A18 Para 21 would also help reduce the need for transfers
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  12. #83
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    Its ironic. The NSR were held up as an example of how the reserve could function and integrate with the pdf pre 2012. Since the VFM and SFC the df and government have proactively disassembled everything that made it work and left the nsr on its knees. Now they need nsr to serve on ships to get them to sea and are surprised when there is no one left to go. So now they try to up the anti. They still fail to realise the fundimental problem. That running a volunteer reserve is entirely different to a permanent force. Motivation is not even remotely the same. If the nsr were running as it did in 2005, there would be bodies fighting to get out on ships like before.
    Scheduled fun will commence at 1900Hrs.
    Punishment beatings will continue until moral improves.

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  14. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC182 View Post
    Its ironic. The NSR were held up as an example of how the reserve could function and integrate with the pdf pre 2012. Since the VFM and SFC the df and government have proactively disassembled everything that made it work and left the nsr on its knees. Now they need nsr to serve on ships to get them to sea and are surprised when there is no one left to go. So now they try to up the anti. They still fail to realise the fundimental problem. That running a volunteer reserve is entirely different to a permanent force. Motivation is not even remotely the same. If the nsr were running as it did in 2005, there would be bodies fighting to get out on ships like before.
    There was a time when the NSR were actively rejecting transfer applicants from people with civvy nautical qualifications because it would upset the status quo.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  16. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    There was a time when the NSR were actively rejecting transfer applicants from people with civvy nautical qualifications because it would upset the status quo.
    Where did that happen ?

  17. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    There was a time when the NSR were actively rejecting transfer applicants from people with civvy nautical qualifications because it would upset the status quo.
    Hopefully things will turn around. A recruit class due to pass out in December so some new blood coming in. There may also be changes to some recruiting parameters next year which may allow for increased numbers. We need to be optimistic or nothing will change or improve.

  18. #87
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Right : ( after 33 years ) Are we REALLY going to try everything but what the reserve people have been asking for , seriously ?

    I KNOW THE PDFS IN A JOCKER

    LET US HELP ITS NOT EXPENSIVE
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  19. #88
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Right : ( after 33 years ) Are we REALLY going to try everything but what the reserve people have been asking for , seriously ?

    I KNOW THE PDFS IN A JOCKER

    LET US HELP ITS NOT EXPENSIVE
    Any quick solutions that you would think would help?

    I've been talking to recruits, it primarily seems to revolve around A: Pay and B: Better organisation and not getting screwed with ever shifting dates for training.

    It's the recruits we need to appeal to and not the long service die hards (no offence intended).

  20. #89
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    easiest and quickest is basic payscales. Minister ( the Taoiseach) should have hauled Pascal in and said : 33% payrise for all ranks - get it done. no linking to other services. Instead it was kicked to touch.

    As its FG what would you expect from a pig but a grunt where the DF is concerned.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  22. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Being honest, I don't think other ranks pay is too bad. It is an entry level wage and you wouldn't get much more in the civi world for joining a company with no qualifications (you'd get less). We often hear about those on family income supplement and the likes at private rank but if you can't afford a family in your twenties, don't have one! I work hard in my civi job to get promoted so I can afford the nicer things and to have a family etc! A private 3* is on 31.5k with MSA after only three years. That's not bad pay for someone in their twenties! If you want to make a career out of the DF, get promoted to NCO rank or get out.

    The main issue I have is with NCO pay. This is where a pay-rise is definitely needed. Maybe not as excessive as 33% but something substantial anyway.

    Officers will always be lured away by the private sector but the DF is a vocation and even a large increase wouldn't be able to match what the civi sector can potentially offer.
    It could at least be comparable with the payment of the entry level civil servant who works in an office mon-fri 37 hours a week. It should definitely be more than the guy working the fryer at McDonalds.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  24. #91
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Being honest, I don't think other ranks pay is too bad. It is an entry level wage and you wouldn't get much more in the civi world for joining a company with no qualifications (you'd get less). We often hear about those on family income supplement and the likes at private rank but if you can't afford a family in your twenties, don't have one!
    While we might be in agreement on this , its not how its been seen by those on the inside and those selling the shortfalls. Society is now about instant gratification and keeping up with the jonses with the majority of people wanting what others have without realising that material wealth is acquired over years as opposed to on signing on to a job.

    A/Sea Bloggs sees PO Smith driving a new car and reckons he should have the same , but over looks that PO Jones has 21 years service and three ranks ahead of him. This to me is the majority of the issue.

    A/Sea Bloggs then reckons that he is worth more and decides to leave , goes to the Daily Rag and tells them how much he is aggrieved that he can't have what PO Jones has and leaves out the rank and service bit!

    PO Jones see what ex PO Smith has on the outside without the hardship.. overlooks the fact that he joined the NS when no one else would look at him.. out the gate with his 21 years of experience.... and gets the job he wants and then cribs that some fcuker has cut his pension entitlement.

    Jaysus....
    Time for another break I think......

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  26. #92
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    It could at least be comparable with the payment of the entry level civil servant who works in an office mon-fri 37 hours a week. It should definitely be more than the guy working the fryer at McDonalds.
    A clerical officer with three years service earns 26k. Also the entry level grade. A three star private earns a few grand more after the same service. There seems to be a lot of misinformation doing the rounds about what actual pay is. It's all there available to view on the published pay scales.

  27. #93
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    While we might be in agreement on this , its not how its been seen by those on the inside and those selling the shortfalls. Society is now about instant gratification and keeping up with the jonses with the majority of people wanting what others have without realising that material wealth is acquired over years as opposed to on signing on to a job.

    A/Sea Bloggs sees PO Smith driving a new car and reckons he should have the same , but over looks that PO Jones has 21 years service and three ranks ahead of him. This to me is the majority of the issue.

    A/Sea Bloggs then reckons that he is worth more and decides to leave , goes to the Daily Rag and tells them how much he is aggrieved that he can't have what PO Jones has and leaves out the rank and service bit!

    PO Jones see what ex PO Smith has on the outside without the hardship.. overlooks the fact that he joined the NS when no one else would look at him.. out the gate with his 21 years of experience.... and gets the job he wants and then cribs that some fcuker has cut his pension entitlement.

    Jaysus....
    I can't agree more. I've seen A/Seamen driving around the base in near new cars and actually getting paid quite well considering tech pay and sea pay but still giving out about how badly paid they are. I'm quite comfortable in my civi job now but it took a good number of years climbing the greasy pole to get here. Most of my formative years were spent (in a good job that required a degree) with earnings that barely covered my rent, a few pints and keeping a ten year old car on the road. No instant gratification but it was all the more sweet when things eventually turned around regarding pay etc.

    I'd often wonder does the grass turn out to be greener for those who leave early with no qualifications before they reach NCO rank?

    Note: I have mentioned sea pay and I do appreciate that this requires significant personal sacrifice from the sailor involved. It's hard earned.

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  29. #94
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Examiner article

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...xNYiaUVMHMaPLo



    The Naval Service has contacted members of its reserve in an attempt to lure them into full-time service to fill posts left vacant due to a major crisis in retention and recruitment.


    File photo.
    Reserves have been used in recent months to ensure adequate manpower levels when ships go to sea, but this latest move is seen as another indication that the Government still is not addressing the root cause of the manpower crisis: Poor pay and conditions.

    The Defence Forces press office said it currently has 234 reservists who were “recently contacted to ascertain their interest in joining as a permanent member in the future”.

    PDForra, which represents enlisted personnel, expressed its surprise at the move.

    “This is just another window-dressing exercise,” said PDForra president Mark Keane. “The financial rewards will not match what these people already have in the private sector, so I’d be surprised if they get many expressions of interest.

    The Department of Defence needs to bite the bullet and address the real issues of why people are leaving in droves and why they can’t get enough new recruits in.

    PDForra general secretary Gerard Guinan said he was also taken aback by the move, as those in the reserve who wanted to join the permanent staff were well aware of how they could do this through the Defence Forces general recruitment schemes.

    “They’re just clutching at straws,” he said. “They’d [the department] be better placed to focus on the retention of personnel by offering decent terms of employment.”

    Defence Forces members are the worst-paid public servants. Last August, the minister of state with responsibility for defence, Paul Kehoe, ordered senior commanders to try to tempt former officers back into service to counter the continuing brain drain in their ranks.

    In particular, he wanted to plug gaps which have appeared in specialist areas in the Army, Naval Service, and Air Corps by offering former officers three-year contracts to rejoin.

    It has yet to be seen if the move was successful, and some people doubt that former pilots would ever be tempted to sign up again as they’re paid far better in the private sector.

    For example, an Air Corps commandant with 15 years’ experience would expect to earn just over €85,000 a year. However, a pilot with similar experience working for a commercial airline such as Ryanair could expect an annual pay packet of between €150,000 and €200,000 a year.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  31. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    It could at least be comparable with the payment of the entry level civil servant who works in an office mon-fri 37 hours a week. It should definitely be more than the guy working the fryer at McDonalds.
    The lowly Clerical Officer starts at approx 23,000 Euro P. A., however with long service at that rank, it can spiral to 39,000 Euro P.A. I think in the overall that Seaman ranks would trail by about 2000 Euro P.A. The crucial aspect of any job are the level of conditions and services available. The service man needs to know that the State will see to the Welfare of himself and his family. He needs to be sure that his sea/shore ratio is not a lottery or the fit of his face.When married the State should provide his accommodation either in barracks or by direct provision in local townships. It would be no harm if they followed the systems provided by the next door neighbour for their servicemen. A housed Serviceman is more likely to stay.

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  33. #96
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The lowly Clerical Officer starts at approx 23,000 Euro P. A., however with long service at that rank, it can spiral to 39,000 Euro P.A. I think in the overall that Seaman ranks would trail by about 2000 Euro P.A. The crucial aspect of any job are the level of conditions and services available. The service man needs to know that the State will see to the Welfare of himself and his family. He needs to be sure that his sea/shore ratio is not a lottery or the fit of his face.When married the State should provide his accommodation either in barracks or by direct provision in local townships. It would be no harm if they followed the systems provided by the next door neighbour for their servicemen. A housed Serviceman is more likely to stay.
    See link to 2018 scales.

    http://www.military.ie/fileadmin/use...Pay_Scales.pdf

    A seaman on point 7 of the scale will 'spiral' to 36k plus. That's not too far off a clerical officer and is still the lowest functioning grade of the DF. This doesn't include any other allowances or pay. The average Irish salary is actually about 36k so the DF is hitting this bar at the lowest rank (I'm discounting recruits, O/S's and cadets).

    This is not badly paid and is pay for someone who in most cases will have the leaving cert as their highest formal qualification. If the A/B upskills, they will most likely receive more pay and rank.

    McDonalds staff will earn 20k per year so comparing this to an A/B's pay is at worst making up information and at best, materially skewing the facts.

    I'd also be of the mind that a clerical officer on nearly 40k is overpaid.

    I do however agree that there are issues regarding housing and assisting with paying rent or a mortgage may help here. There are also major issues with relation to time being spent at sea by many ranks. Too many being asked to do much due to the deluge of manpower and too many sea dodgers not going out at all.

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  35. #97
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I'd often wonder does the grass turn out to be greener for those who leave early with no qualifications before they reach NCO rank?
    My own case , 30 years on, within three years of leaving I was earning 50 quid a week more than I was as an A/Sea.... but I didn't have the job security that went with the DF.

    Note: I have mentioned sea pay and I do appreciate that this requires significant personal sacrifice from the sailor involved. It's hard earned
    should have read the small print on the end of the contract....'will be expected to go to sea'... the clue being in Navy!!! Its part of the job, yes it could be run more fairly.. but you join the navy to go to sea......fails me to see people bitching about the basic requirement of the job especially at junior level.

    Mate of mine did his recruit training and never saw the base again, spent his entire service on two different ships... some like it.. some don't
    Time for another break I think......

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  37. #98
    Recruit Poiuyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    not getting screwed with ever shifting dates for training.
    God, I remember the days when training dates were fixed in December/January for the following year. And woe betide anyone who tried to change them. Every weekend up to camp that was of any importance was mapped out, dates were set for ARPs, fitness tests etc.

    But the reorg of 2013 happened and the idea of planning anything even 2 months in advance was absolutely alien to the PDF (not taking a dig at the PDF, just a different mentality). We would talk about the need for set dates to PDF who couldn't give any guarantees beyond the next week. Often you would only find out what PDF instructor you were getting when they actually showed up, mainly because they could be pulled for any job that came up and the RDF was way down the priority list.

    It is just a different mentality and one of the major failings of the re-org that the mentalities could not mesh - RDF need to know dates well in advance in order to book time off work etc., PDF need to be flexible in order to deal with any situations that arise. RDF get angry about training dates being constantly moved and PDF get angry about the numbers showing up to that training.

    The mentalities cannot work with each other. It is not a bad mark on either side, just the way it is.
    Last edited by Poiuyt; 19th October 2018 at 17:43.

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  39. #99
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Ok, remember when the pay was cut for new entrants ?

    You could have a few weeks less service and be earning less approx €10 less a week doing exactly the same job

    How can anyone compare being a sailor and being a clerical officer

    It is about pay but also conditions:

    Having to sleep on ships that are alongside

    Leave being cancelled

    24 hour duties

    Putting to sea in the roughest seas in the world
    Your 2 years ashore not being 2 years ashore

  40. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Ok, remember when the pay was cut for new entrants ?

    You could have a few weeks less service and be earning less approx €10 less a week doing exactly the same job

    How can anyone compare being a sailor and being a clerical officer

    It is about pay but also conditions:

    Having to sleep on ships that are alongside

    Leave being cancelled

    24 hour duties

    Putting to sea in the roughest seas in the world
    Your 2 years ashore not being 2 years ashore
    Joining the DF is a vocation however. Going by the tale of woe above, should our sailors not be paid 60k a pop? The conditions definitely need to change but I think the pay beyond a marginal increase is right where it should be for an AB.

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