Defending the Irish airspace

[GoneToTheCanner]

why would they bother talking with Sweden when their bigger, wealthier neighbours can't keep their Gripen fleet working? I suspect they'd take the S.African fighters if they could get them for near nothing and then buy in a Swedish support package, while the South Africans would happily dump the Gripens, if they got half a chance, except the loss of face would be too hard to bear.

[Sparky42]

why would they bother talking with Sweden when their bigger, wealthier neighbours can't keep their Gripen fleet working? I suspect they'd take the S.African fighters if they could get them for near nothing and then buy in a Swedish support package, while the South Africans would happily dump the Gripens, if they got half a chance, except the loss of face would be too hard to bear.

If SA dumped the Gripens what would they replace them with? I assume the issue is more with funding/support on the SA side rather than the Gripen?

[EUFighter]

SADF is in a right mess, large force with a medium sized budget. South Africa is not what it once was, the GDP is not much larger than our on despite a population 10 times the size. It struggles with a large force of men and the corruption within the current government is not helping. If they get rid of their Grippens there will not be a replacement, at least not in the short term as it is money for operation that is missing. Eventually they would most likely also look to the T50 range from KAI which have price tags around $30m.

[GoneToTheCanner]

The Gripen story in the SADF is very sad, as they are on their uppers and trying to keep first class fighters running on beans...

[Jetjock]

The Gripen story in the SADF is very sad, as they are on their uppers and trying to keep first class fighters running on beans...

The fact that relatively speaking, beans are all it takes to keep Gripens flying tells you how bad the situation is.

[na grohmití]

I give SA 10 years before it becomes another African Basket case. Zuma & Co are slowly becoming another Mugabe, and will soon be blaming all the countries problems on whites and European, British and US influence.
The fact that while we see many migrants heading for Europe via the med, many more africans have chosen SA as their destination of hope, and the SA economy is struggling to support them.

[GoneToTheCanner]

When all the various wars with the Border countries stopped, guess where all the labour went? Into SA, to work in the mines, as it gave guaranteed wages, housing and medical care, unheard of at home and the economies of Mozambique, Angola, Zambia, Lesotho and Swaziland came to depend heavily on repatriated monies and goods. It's still the strongest economy in the South of Africa.

[sofa]

I always said I'd like to see South Africa before the blacks ruin it. Looks like I left it to late.

[na grohmití]

I always said I'd like to see South Africa before the blacks ruin it. Looks like I left it to late.

Look around at the amount of Afrikaans living in Ireland and the UK permanently. They got out while they still could.

[Graylion]

guys, can we cut the racism? This is disgusting.

[apc]

guys, can we cut the racism? This is disgusting.

Maybe I am naive but where is the racism. You have Blacks, coloureds and whites in SA and the blacks are in charge , the government is corrupt and is going down the toilet. I have a friend whose coloured ( her description ) whose husband ( also coloured ) is in the police, has attained a rank but cant get any further as all jobs , promotions in the public services have to go to Blacks first. the term Black is not a racist term

[expat01]

The implication seems to be that the country is going down the tubes because it's run by blacks.
Like saying Ireland was a mess between 1922 and the mid 1960s because it was run by the Irish.
It was in a mess, the first 50 years of independence were a never-ending, unbroken and unrelieved source of fodder for "I told you so" British comments on why the Irish shouldn't be let run anything and why Scotland should stay in the union as our governments failed to make a single intelligent decision beyond the Shannon hydroelectric scheme. But not because Irish people were inherently incapable of running the place.
South Africa? Some parts of the state were well run, such as the revenue service, and remained so until this year. So its not a case of "blacks just can't".

Yes, the ANC is a corrupt party.
It developed marxist-style "democratic centralist" policies in exile, meaning that the boys at the top can cut out all debate when they want to and which encourages patronage and empire-building. The flavour of corruption within the party started very much to mimic the situation that exists in many former Soviet states.
Also, the electoral system is fundamentally anti-democratic as there is no link between MPs and the voter. They are all appointed by their parties and owe their jobs to their party structure.
Add to that the fact that since 1994 the ANC has been able to rely on an overwhelming majority at the polls and has learned that they are guaranteed power no matter what they do. That might no longer be the case, they have lost control of some cities...they new (black) mayor of Joburg has now, after a year in office, started a wave of firings and even pressed charges against corrupt officials in city departments.
Corruption has multiplied hand over fist since Zuma took over. He knows the system and is very good at staying in power. He also has no concerns for anything other than his own wealth. But some have refused to be corrupted. They've suffered the consequences, but the point is that they exist. Whether there will be anything left to save by the time the ANC loses a national election is the question.
But to imagine that all this started in 1994 is blind stupidity.
The National Party may not have been as blatantly corrupt, but start with the billions and billions that turn out to have been siphoned off into a few hands in the last five years of NP rule and work backwards from there. The cozy deals and backhanders were well established. Even the security apparatus that kept apartheid running turns out to have been run as a private enrichment scheme. The new government never chased it up because....well, why stop a good thing?

And finally, an interesting parallel with the military.
The Nats distrusted the SADF because it was seen as too English and didn't invest in it. Even when they brought in conscription, it was a joke. The money went to the police and the intelligence services. That's why police units were sent to help support the Rhodesian regime and not the military. So in 1976, the SADF came up short in Angola (their operational objective was a complete failure, and what else matters?) because it didn't have enough equipment and what it did have was ancient. Cue belated and overdue investment.
The ANC distrusts the military because it has been too Afrikaans and doesn't invest in it. The money goes to the security services, the national intelligence service and the police...then a few crumbs to the military which is seen as providing employment for a few tens of thousands of the otherwise unemployable masses.

[Graylion]

Thank you. Not dissimilar to what I was going to write, but yours is better informed. One niggle "Also, the electoral system is fundamentally anti-democratic as there is no link between MPs and the voter.". This, I submit is an Anglosphere view. Severl very democratic nations like Germany and Sweden have systems like this.

[expat01]

Thank you. Not dissimilar to what I was going to write, but yours is better informed. One niggle "Also, the electoral system is fundamentally anti-democratic as there is no link between MPs and the voter.". This, I submit is an Anglosphere view. Severl very democratic nations like Germany and Sweden have systems like this.

I don't know whether it's Anglo or not - the French might disagree - but I stick by it. The Germans use a mixed system, so half the bundestag is elected directly, half by party list. It gives voter control and also allows the party to, theoretically, choose excellent but otherwise unelectable candidates. Not sure how that works in practice.
I knew nothing about the Swedish system so looked it up. Potentially, it is open to massive abuse. Parties choose all MPs and the ballot is not secret? If the Swedes get democratically minded rulers, it's due to good fortune and virtue, not their system. Personally, I don't trust politicians that far.
Ireland has a great voting system, but a very weak parliament - a major democratic flaw.
The US system is overall very well designed to balance the power of the different branches of government, but falls down when you have two parties, one of which has a scorched earth policy to the other's policies. Also, theoretically at least, in that the presidential votes of the American people can be ignored by the electoral college.
No perfection under the sun.....

[Graylion]

Guys, let me thank you all for your reaction to the racism comment and explanation. In most militarily interested forums that I know this would have gone quite differently. *Impressed*

[mugs]

But we wouldn't give them to the nuns!

All kinds of images of armed Nuns going through my head right now


Squadron of 12 Gripens at Baldonnel.
Flight of 4 for intercept,
Flight of 4 in ground attack/surveillance (army support),
Flight of 4 for training.

Pilots rotating regularly to different roles and standby duties.

*prepares for incoming*

[DeV]

All kinds of images of armed Nuns going through my head right now


Squadron of 12 Gripens at Baldonnel.
Flight of 4 for intercept,
Flight of 4 in ground attack/surveillance (army support),
Flight of 4 for training.

Pilots rotating regularly to different roles and standby duties.

*prepares for incoming*

Swing role fighter means it can do the three jobs in the same sortie if necessary.

Realistic your looking at 30+% being unavailable due to maintenance

[Graylion]

Swing role fighter means it can do the three jobs in the same sortie if necessary.

Realistic your looking at 30+% being unavailable due to maintenance

So buy 16 JAS-39 F "Growler" and Bob's your auntie.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Don't forget Fleet Time management, which all of the decent air forces practise, where a portion are grounded in flyable storage to save hours, so knock off a chunk of your twelve for that and suddenly your daily availability is down to four...

[Graylion]

Don't forget Fleet Time management, which all of the decent air forces practise, where a portion are grounded in flyable storage to save hours, so knock off a chunk of your twelve for that and suddenly your daily availability is down to four...

so in order to have 12 available that means buy 24?

[GoneToTheCanner]

well, that size of buy wouldn't wash with Finance, so base your thinking on 12....as for swing role, that depends on how fast the loaders can change missiles to bombs.....also, you'd have to seriously consider Shannon as an alternate permanent base, given that so much of the Don's workload happens over there.

[Graylion]

well, that size of buy wouldn't wash with Finance, so base your thinking on 12....as for swing role, that depends on how fast the loaders can change missiles to bombs.....also, you'd have to seriously consider Shannon as an alternate permanent base, given that so much of the Don's workload happens over there.

Shannon would be sensible, also for noise reasons. I grew up with the 'sound of freedom'. It's kinda loud As for swing role. At home we realistically only need AA armament. Deploy abroad for needing bombs.

[DeV]

well, that size of buy wouldn't wash with Finance, so base your thinking on 12....as for swing role, that depends on how fast the loaders can change missiles to bombs.....also, you'd have to seriously consider Shannon as an alternate permanent base, given that so much of the Don's workload happens over there.

Gripes is fast changing

Shannon would be sensible, also for noise reasons. I grew up with the 'sound of freedom'. It's kinda loud As for swing role. At home we realistically only need AA armament. Deploy abroad for needing bombs.

Only if ROE allow them

[Sparky42]

so in order to have 12 available that means buy 24?

What numbers are the Eastern European nations with loans going for in terms of numbers? Croatia and Hungary went with 14 (mixed) while other offers have been around a squadron worth.

[morpheus]

Figures from recently for countries who leased a squadron from Saab, for 10 year periods - 1 squadron = 80 -100m per year...

note: coastguard can afford 5 x Sikorsky S92 @ 50m per year for 10 years ... this isnt rocket science.