Defending the Irish airspace

[Flamingo]

But would there be enough space in the hangers for them?

Face it, unless they can be used to transport a minister or someone can live in them, they are not going to happen - which is a crying shame.

[Silver]

When I brought up the topic of the Swiss F-5's on another forum, this was a reply I received.

Opinions? ...

"It's not the electronics that's the issue. It's the airframe and engines. The US Navy (which the USMC is a part of, whether they like it or not), has plenty of experience operating F-5s in the Aggressor role going back to the 1970s/1980s. They have the facilities, the machinery and the spare parts to replace fuselage frames that have been overstressed or engines that are at the end of their life. Ireland does not. And the F-5 is not exactly a current model.

What's more, the F-5 would be unsuitable even if it were still current. It simply lacks the sensors needed for operating in the environment that any Irish interceptors would be expected to operate in. The Marines will operate those F-5s, those that they can get flight ready, in a very specific environment: a clearly delineated area of airspace where they know from the start what they will be up against and what their job will be: close range air combat. Any Irish fighters could potentially find themselves going up against an unknown radar contact in the dead of night, possibly in bad weather and beyond the range of shore-based radar. in such kinds of situations, an aircraft with barely any radar and without datalink capabilities is a liability, not an asset.

Also, let's be real here: The likelihood of the Irish Air Corps operating a squadron of fighter aircraft anytime soon is very low, as much as I'd love to see it happen. Even if the political will were there, we lack the infrastructure, from the airbase to the maintenance depots and cache of weapons (in case things do go south), to the radar and command & control facilities. Lets not muddy the waters any more by dragging up any clapped-out aircraft that someone is putting up for sale"

[Anzac]

But would there be enough space in the hangers for them?

Build a hangar.

[Anzac]

When I brought up the topic of the Swiss F-5's on another forum, this was a reply I received.

Opinions? ...

"It's not the electronics that's the issue. It's the airframe and engines. The US Navy (which the USMC is a part of, whether they like it or not), has plenty of experience operating F-5s in the Aggressor role going back to the 1970s/1980s. They have the facilities, the machinery and the spare parts to replace fuselage frames that have been overstressed or engines that are at the end of their life. Ireland does not. And the F-5 is not exactly a current model.

Definitely the person who quoted that is stretching to be a contrarian. 1. The engines are being upgraded as part of ARTEMIS. 2. The airframes by all accounts will be essentially remanufactured. 3. If 1 and 2 are done there should not be a problem of Ireland under Partnership for Peace membership and contractual arrangements with the vendors to hook into the same NAVAIR arrangements as the USMC just like the RNZAF has done to keep its 60 year old P-3's and C-130's operating on the support and sustainment side. 4. That person who made the quote on the other forum will have no knowledge of the condition of these Swiss aircraft to make an estimation that they are at the end of their useful life and would be unaware of the fact that under ARTEMIS their root fatigue index is such that they can be life extended to 9000 hours. 5. You do not need the current model of the most up to date generation to do basic air space interceptions and fact it is why in the US Air National Guard for example they still use Block 30 Vipers for this role in some states. After all one of the frequent air policing taskings are for safety reasons escorting through airspace passenger jets with their transponders off or non notified biz jet movements.

What's more, the F-5 would be unsuitable even if it were still current. It simply lacks the sensors needed for operating in the environment that any Irish interceptors would be expected to operate in.

The person on the other forum is speaking absolute nonsense. Even in their current Swiss state they are able to operate in the air policing role. Ireland is never going to deploy them as part of an NATO air combat package to take on the Russians but use them to do an intercept of business jets, commercial aircraft and the occasional slow flying large Russian military aircraft off the west coast.

The Marines will operate those F-5s, those that they can get flight ready, in a very specific environment: a clearly delineated area of airspace where they know from the start what they will be up against and what their job will be: close range air combat.

Again the person on the other forum is confusing an air policing intercept with red air notams required for BACM.

Any Irish fighters could potentially find themselves going up against an unknown radar contact in the dead of night, possibly in bad weather and beyond the range of shore-based radar. in such kinds of situations, an aircraft with barely any radar and without datalink capabilities is a liability, not an asset.

Again the person on the other forum is merely speculating about the Swiss aircraft capabilities and is not informed about the upgrades the aircraft they will likely undertake under ARTEMIS which includes a radar update and datalinks.

I am going to add in here another thing which would be a likely consideration if Ireland was in a position to acquire the aircraft off the Swiss and I doubt that the bloke commenting on this other forum has not thought through.

The Yanks will be involved in any ex US designed and manufactured military aircraft due to US ITARS laws which have a commercial and political lens to it. They will oversee that transfer from the Swiss via the State Department to Ireland. I don't see any issue as Ireland is a friendly country to both and will look positively to the deal due to concepts as self reliance and burden sharing. But the Yanks, the transactionalists that they are will want some in return and that is that as part of the deal ARTEMIS upgrades undertaken by US companies and would like their slice via US companies the contract to support and sustain the platform. You can see that as part of the recent Portugal transfer to Romania of early Block Vipers.

Also, let's be real here: The likelihood of the Irish Air Corps operating a squadron of fighter aircraft anytime soon is very low, as much as I'd love to see it happen. Even if the political will were there, we lack the infrastructure, from the airbase to the maintenance depots and cache of weapons (in case things do go south), to the radar and command & control facilities.

And lets be clear here too. The requirement that Ireland has discussed stemming from the COD is for an air policing squadron for Irelands ADIZ and not a full up multi-role strike / fighter squadron that has the institutional capability to do all the war fighting roles from TacRec through to DEAD.

1. Buy the radar system. 2. Build a small on base magazine for the few AIM-9P's you will have. 3. Build a basic hangar that the contracted firm will do its business - just like we have at Hangar 1 at Ohakea where we fly the T-6C's and back inside the shed the lads from Hawker Pacific keep the plane flying. 4. Command and Control - Taoiseach via High Wycombe with an Air Corps liaison officer on desk - why reinvent the wheel or do it from Torrejón in Spain under NATO P4P again with an Air Corps liaison officer on desk looking after the response chain.

I think the problem is that normally everyone thinks that a fighter squadron of brand new Gen 4 aircraft costs way too much money and thinks only of new Gripens and F-16's et al. But for a budget of $75-100 million the F-5 option on the table might start correcting some heads and be entirely sufficient for the time being to address a huge capability gap in Ireland's airspace. Until their recent retirement the JASDF often used pretty rudimentary F-4's as their QRA platform instead of F-2's and F-15J's for that you need just a cheap and cheerful but supersonic capable light fighter. You sending the Constable and not the SWAT team.

Lets not muddy the waters any more by dragging up any clapped-out aircraft that someone is putting up for sale"

Used aircraft that are not clapped out are always worth considering for discussion whether or not the current Irish government is interested. Policy ideas in government do still come from the public if they are compelling enough to solve a political problem. Road testing them on public forums like this has its role because often perspectives and inputs beyond departmental policy groups do feed up through the decision chain. I know because I saw it happen when I pushed pens around once upon a time.

[Jetjock]

True as all that may be, there are a number of reasons why it is a bad idea.

1. Buying a fighter that is globally being phased out would leave the IAC as one of very few operators. Parts, know how and support will soon start to dwindle. Quickly. Obsolescence issues will snowball before you know it.

2. Upgrades would leave the jets in a unique configuration. It has been hard learned in the past here that this is a bad idea

3. Coming from such a low base, the work-up period for any level of operational capability will be considerable. 5-10 years. The type purchased must be capable of providing service well beyond that date. Otherwise the cheap purchase price will be the very definition of false economy.

Rewind 20 years and it wouldn't have been an outrageous idea. In fact not a million miles off an ideal solution. Cheap to operate, two engines. Decent performance, if limited sensor/weapons fit. But they've had their day.
In the past I haven't been a big fan of F/A 50. But it's evolution has been impressive. It is an infinitely better option.

[na grohmiti]

Same here. I considered it another Asian oddity, but as soon as Poland chose it, everything changed, plus, its basically an F16 parts bin, on a smaller airframe. Its a truly multi role aircraft. The only other trainer in the mix is the Italian job, which is not supersonic, and boasts no combat capability, apart from cosplaying as a fighter jet.

Or Gripen C/D obviously.

[GoneToTheCanner]

True as all that may be, there are a number of reasons why it is a bad idea.

1. Buying a fighter that is globally being phased out would leave the IAC as one of very few operators. Parts, know how and support will soon start to dwindle. Quickly. Obsolescence issues will snowball before you know it.

2. Upgrades would leave the jets in a unique configuration. It has been hard learned in the past here that this is a bad idea

3. Coming from such a low base, the work-up period for any level of operational capability will be considerable. 5-10 years. The type purchased must be capable of providing service well beyond that date. Otherwise the cheap purchase price will be the very definition of false economy.

Rewind 20 years and it wouldn't have been an outrageous idea. In fact not a million miles off an ideal solution. Cheap to operate, two engines. Decent performance, if limited sensor/weapons fit. But they've had their day.
In the past I haven't been a big fan of F/A 50. But it's evolution has been impressive. It is an infinitely better option.

Hungary gave themselves 5 years to become proficient on the Gripen and that's before meeting the NATO standard for fighter operations, despite being serious fighter operators anyway. Heart says buy the F5s to get into the fighter game and build the experienced cadre of pilots and mechs and support staff; head says, call in the Swedish Ambassador tomorrow and pull out the chequebook....

[EUFighter]

The size of the task is not to be underestimated. Switzerland has a land mass just over 50% of that of Ireland, and when we add in the sea area we would have to patrol the size rapidly increases So while an F5 with its very short legs might work for the Swiss it does not have the legs we would need to have a we have a load of tankers and are proficient in AAR. While an KAI F50 would be the best introduction to a modern fighter type it too would be far from perfect but way better than the F5E.

For any country the fighter aircraft is a great recruitment driver, go back 80 years while a Seafire would not have the draw of a Meteor it ranked higher than the Gladiator. Go for the KAI F50 and it would draw more recruits than basically a 60 year old design.

The Koreans are masters at deals, most of what the Poles want is coming with a good financing from the Koreans. They are hungry to get more market share and will support the introduction of these aircraft. Northrop is unlikely to be interested in supporting the deployment of F5 in Irish service. But the winning factor for the KAI F50 is that it has two seats which means that it can be utilized for the primary Air Corps mission of MATS.