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  1. #1
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    Defending the Irish airspace

    After the Bear incursion it occurs to me that the very first thing that is needed is decent LR radar coverage. If we want to buy European, two systems come to mind:

    http://saab.com/air/sensor-systems/g...ce/giraffe-8a/

    or

    https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/world...ce/smart-l-ewc

    Buy 2, install one in Donegal and one in Kerry

  2. #2
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    Yes. Let's see what we can't do anything about, then think about getting a way to do something about it later.
    If we get the radar in the next four or five years, my money is on the logic leading to a small FJ capacity when the pilatus fleet comes up for replacement.

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  4. #3
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    we'd also need a HQ that can actually use the data ... How many staff?

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  6. #4
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I say go civvy spec long range primary radar.

    If that is going to mean buying 10 to give 100% coverage it may be cheaper to get 2-3 mil spec.

    Either way I say let the IAA own and operate it but make sure data is integrated into AC RAP

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    http://www.easat.com/atc/primary

    The problem that I see is that max range is 120 km vs 480. And the raison d'etre would be exactly that range - at least for me. Adding more systems would not help, because we can't put them onto barges out to sea.

  8. #6
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    If we're going to purchase them it makes sense to place them to get better all round coverage as well

    http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/Published%20...ENR_1_6_EN.pdf
    See page 4

  9. #7
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    Range circles for military radars positioned in Kerry and Donegal, range 470 km:

    http://obeattie.github.io/gmaps-radi...z=5&u=km&r=470

    aer defence.PNG

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  11. #8
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    One; the PC-9m's will be replaced by more ''barbie'' trainers, not lean and mean jets, the fact that there is planning for a replacement is cool, but no indication that anything useful will appear.
    Two; 470 km strikes me as a bit short, I'd prefer 1000km, but considering the size of the Atlantic......
    Three; go the extra step, get military radar, low level is important.

    Just my 2 cent worth.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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    Well, for 1000 km we'd need this:

    http://saab.com/air/airborne-solutio...nce/globaleye/

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  14. #10
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    Should be an annual exercise with the Lear going 200 miles out over the Atlantic, switching off its transponder, dropping altitude and making a beeline for Dublin/Belfast/Sellafield.

    Show the shortcomings in the coverage and really get the Irish & UK defence liaison procedures worked hard.

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  16. #11
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    We have a Learjet?
    Just visiting

  17. #12
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    Yes. Purely because they can't politically justify a G. IV and the King Air is gone. Ryanair has four Learjets; maybe the Don could borrow one off him if this one goes tech.

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    For testing the radar I'd have a word with some neighbouring nations. I am sure they'll be happy to oblige.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    One; the PC-9m's will be replaced by more ''barbie'' trainers, not lean and mean jets, the fact that there is planning for a replacement is cool, but no indication that anything useful will appear.
    Two; 470 km strikes me as a bit short, I'd prefer 1000km, but considering the size of the Atlantic......
    Three; go the extra step, get military radar, low level is important.

    Just my 2 cent worth.
    Sense would seem to dictate that, given the PC-9s were themselves a total waste of money with no legitimate purpose to the point that seeing them flying is an embarrassment, given that this fact has had time to sink in, a further replacement with something similar would be sheer lunacy.
    There should either be no single seat aircraft, or some kind of fast air-to-air capable platform.

    However, history says you are more likely right than wrong.

    Mind you, experience would also have found the notion of a fourth OPV being ordered to be wishful thinking.
    Last edited by expat01; 28th July 2016 at 21:41.

  20. #15
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    Why are we moaning about having a top of the range trainer.

    Moan about the lack of a air defence fighter.

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  22. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Why are we moaning about having a top of the range trainer.

    Moan about the lack of a air defence fighter.
    Ditto decent SAM capability.

  23. #17
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Yes. Purely because they can't politically justify a G. IV and the King Air is gone. Ryanair has four Learjets; maybe the Don could borrow one off him if this one goes tech.
    Stick a set of sidewinders on the Learjet.
    Just visiting

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  25. #18
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    I think that advanced trainers would be nice if you also had fast air to move up to. Given that we are unlikely to acquire both, why not get the fast air and farm out that training? Or get a trainer like the aermacchi which can at least bring a missile to bear on the Learjet.

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  27. #19
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    Let's see what is out there first. If we see loads of bears, we might be able to talk to our neighbours - if not UK then France - about the odd couple of fighters visiting. I'd really go with radar first, and integrate it into a European radar network that one could postulate.

  28. #20
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    Light trainer (eg Hawk) probably wouldn't have the range to shadow/escort a Bear 100 miles out.

    A even 3rd gen flighter would require probably a 20% increase in the defence budget.

    Let's worry about knowing that there is a requirement to send up the Learjet to ram a Bear first.

    The purchase, set up, integration etc of 2 long range radars could cost north of €50 million

  29. #21
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    A small number of Fast jets capable of patroling our airspace which have the "potential" to intercept anything the various military blocks might might be inclined to let stray over Ireland would be nice. Keep it as simple as possible and do a service deal with Sweden for long term maintenance if you fancy some of the older Saabs.

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  31. #22
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    Just wondering has anyone any idea of what would be required in both manpower and logistics to keep 2 aircraft on alert ? Also If we were able to detect an belligerent aircraft at 400/500km out over the Atlantic, what sort of time frame in needed for intercept and at what distance would the intercept happen?

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  33. #23
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    I say something like 2 x Thales TRAC2000N on high ground in Donegal and Kerry. Owned & operated by IAA (that way the cost can be recouped from airlines and maybe even some from the EU). Intergrated into IAA & AC radar pictures.

    https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/de..._datasheet.pdf

  34. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    Just wondering has anyone any idea of what would be required in both manpower and logistics to keep 2 aircraft on alert ? Also If we were able to detect an belligerent aircraft at 400/500km out over the Atlantic, what sort of time frame in needed for intercept and at what distance would the intercept happen?
    Also factor in that in the case of the Bears flying along very roughly N-S through Irish controlled airspace, the 2 original aircraft that are sent up will need to be replaced (on station) by another 2 within probably 2 hours.

  35. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Also factor in that in the case of the Bears flying along very roughly N-S through Irish controlled airspace, the 2 original aircraft that are sent up will need to be replaced (on station) by another 2 within probably 2 hours.
    I'd build up the radar network and leave the expenditure for fighters to the RAF - or the Armée de'l Air

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