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  1. #226
    BQMS EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    Apologies - forgot about this - I believe this is the site:
    http://www.heywhatsthat.com/

    Regarding some of the comments above:- with three primary radar heads, I believe there simply have to be some significant blind spots at low level.

    Advances in RF such DSP have aided radars in conditions like clutter, rain etc - however - you're not going to get a great Primary UHF radar return from an aircraft if your signal and the echo from the aircraft, both have to go through tons of granite in Co. Wicklow.

    I'd love to see a stress test of the system, be it civilian or military led - tracking a transponderless jet at low level is tricky for anyone.
    Only efficient way is to have a radar above the target aircraft.............

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Well, three primaries probably covers most of the blind spots and are primarily concerned with airport traffic or high altitude crossing over traffic. What may be out of sight to one radar may be visible to another. You'd still have to work hard at it to stay out of sight to radar.
    Well, to use my example of blind spots possibly caused by Wicklow Mts - Shannon and Cork are both roughly 100 miles away from Wicklow.

    Due to earths curvature, leaving aside hills, mountains, etc, the theoretical max range of a radar antenna located at 150ft searching for an aircraft at 2000ft is about 80 miles.

    In reality you've got the Knockmealdowns, Blackstairs and other hills in the way too.

    But that's just Wicklow - I'd expect significant Primary Radar blackspots at low level across the NW of the country given the distance from the 3 sites.

    I've no doubt that the existing IAA infrastructure is fine for dealing with co-operative traffic and that's what it's built for.

    Anyway, this is probably all a bit academic given the many more pressing problems facing the DF at the moment.

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  4. #228
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    We have explained and discussed the differences between primary and secondary radar many time but just like the discussion over AIS it is not the planes who have a transponder on that are of interest to the DF but those who do not. Just as many argue we do not need more ships to perform fishery patrol because we know where every boat is as the have AIS so it is with aircraft. The ones who are doing something they should not normally are those who do not send out a signal saying where they are.

    A plane can lose a radio so it is no longer in contact with ATC, or its transponder could fail. But normally ATC will know who they are and where they are going and will still be able to track them if in normal cruise. Having said that most countries today want to know what is going on in an aircraft that has lost radio contact and will scramble some fighters to go have a look. Sadly in some cases like Helios and Payne Stuart it is to confirm the worst, most however is that there has been an equipment failure. And then we have the Russians trying to annoy the Brits by trying to find a backdoor route to give them a shock.

    But the first step would be to get the 100% picture, to have a integrated airspace picture. Today we cannot even know if someone is flying into the airspace we control at low level without a transponder turned on.

  5. #229
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    Looking at the geography of our little island we have a big flat bit in the middle surrounded by a lot of different mountain ranges. Even if our mountains are not the tailest in Europe, most of the key ranges are above 2000ft. Which is why our primary radars are near the coast, and some on the tops of hills!

  6. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Looking at the geography of our little island we have a big flat bit in the middle surrounded by a lot of different mountain ranges. Even if our mountains are not the tailest in Europe, most of the key ranges are above 2000ft. Which is why our primary radars are near the coast, and some on the tops of hills!
    The 3 primary radars are at the 3 main airports

    Page 4 shows the coverage:
    http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/Published%20...ENR_1_6_EN.pdf

  7. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The 3 primary radars are at the 3 main airports

    Page 4 shows the coverage:
    http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/Published%20...ENR_1_6_EN.pdf
    Yes, pg 4 shows the range coverage, which is only 120km, it does not show the coverage for aircraft at different altitudes. As pointed out by pym unless we have some super new high tech radar that can see through granite there are blind spots. Even if we do have these super radars there are considerable gaps, part of Keryy, Waterford, Wexford and almost the entire NW are not covered by PSR
    The IAA is primarily interested in guiding civil traffic to safe landing at one of the major airports. They do not and cannot monitor all traffic that could enter our airspace without a transponder.

  8. #232
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Yes, pg 4 shows the range coverage, which is only 120km, it does not show the coverage for aircraft at different altitudes. As pointed out by pym unless we have some super new high tech radar that can see through granite there are blind spots. Even if we do have these super radars there are considerable gaps, part of Keryy, Waterford, Wexford and almost the entire NW are not covered by PSR
    The IAA is primarily interested in guiding civil traffic to safe landing at one of the major airports. They do not and cannot monitor all traffic that could enter our airspace without a transponder.
    I know

    I was pointing out that none of our primary radar sites are on tops of mountains they are sited at the 3 main airports

  9. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I know

    I was pointing out that none of our primary radar sites are on tops of mountains they are sited at the 3 main airports
    We do put some of our secondary radars on mountain tops, or at least up a bit higher than normal.

  10. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    We do put some of our secondary radars on mountain tops, or at least up a bit higher than normal.
    Correct

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