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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    Just wondering has anyone any idea of what would be required in both manpower and logistics to keep 2 aircraft on alert ? Also If we were able to detect an belligerent aircraft at 400/500km out over the Atlantic, what sort of time frame in needed for intercept and at what distance would the intercept happen?
    The two UK QRA's - north at Lossiemouth and south at Conningsby - use between 6 and 8 airframes each to keep two at R5 and two more at R30. However, that's the immediate pool, not the deep sevicing, attrition, and training requirements to keep those 6 to 8 aircraft and crews in a condition that would allow to operate the QRA at R5, R30, and R120.

    Rough guess? 12+ aircraft to keep 6 at any form of readiness. 20 pilots and 100+ ground crew to get them flying, plus whatever is required to operate an airfield.

    Thee one term you'll never used when QRA is being discussed is 'cheap'....

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  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    The two UK QRA's - north at Lossiemouth and south at Conningsby - use between 6 and 8 airframes each to keep two at R5 and two more at R30. However, that's the immediate pool, not the deep sevicing, attrition, and training requirements to keep those 6 to 8 aircraft and crews in a condition that would allow to operate the QRA at R5, R30, and R120.

    Rough guess? 12+ aircraft to keep 6 at any form of readiness. 20 pilots and 100+ ground crew to get them flying, plus whatever is required to operate an airfield.

    Thee one term you'll never used when QRA is being discussed is 'cheap'....
    I think thats the point, thinking we can have some sort of intercept capability with fast jets is wishful thinking.

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  5. #28
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    20 pilots would probably strip at least 2 existing squadrons of all their pilots

  6. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    I think thats the point, thinking we can have some sort of intercept capability with fast jets is wishful thinking.
    I suppose it depends on the parameters - within the current defence budget it seems to me that QRA is about as doable as building a new Death Star in your garden shed, however Ireland's economy is easily capable of supporting a defence budget within which QRA - almost certainly a leasing arrangement with Saab for the Gripe - would be entirely possible without impacting on the current roles and tasks.

    That however is a political question...

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  8. #30
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    Depends on BREXIT

  9. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    20 pilots would probably strip at least 2 existing squadrons of all their pilots
    Depends on the parameters, 20 aircrew is a realistic figure, but flying an FJ is a very demanding job, all the more reason to organise such training with suitable people in other forces, good ones like the US navy, or the Israelies...
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  11. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    20 aircrew is a realistic figure
    10 new pilots received there wings today. You know as well as I do why the class is so big and it isn't because there is spare aircrew in Baldonnel

  12. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    10 new pilots received there wings today. You know as well as I do why the class is so big and it isn't because there is spare aircrew in Baldonnel
    Yup, Air Corps pilots tend to have more hours the a lot of other military organisation.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  13. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    Yup, Air Corps pilots tend to have more hours the a lot of other military organisation.
    That's the way the brother officer pilots have it , lots of hours up on the log book for leaving,

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    I think thats the point, thinking we can have some sort of intercept capability with fast jets is wishful thinking.
    This is it , can you imagine an Irish Gov ordering aircraft to fire at anything other than the targets off Gormo.

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  17. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    I think thats the point, thinking we can have some sort of intercept capability with fast jets is wishful thinking.
    That is why I argue for radar first - it would help change the mindset.

  18. #37
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    what is the point in having the radar if you cant go up and have look.

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  20. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zone 1 View Post
    what is the point in having the radar if you cant go up and have look.
    No point in having a look if ya don't know where to look, so we sort out the radar first, getting valuable education, while directing our neighbors on the big island to the east, while it slowly, very slowly, dawns on the bean counters that we have a gap in our defences and our credibility as a sovereign nation.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  22. #39
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    When talking about patroling our airspace I feel that we should have short/medium/long term aspirations. Doing a comparison with the RAF is not helpfull ...they are playing wargames and politics with Russia. At the moment we are incapable of doing much as we have no radar/interceptors and we don't know what's going on above our heads.
    Any form of Radar is preferrable to none (even if it shared with our civilian agency to ease costs as others here have suggested) Most here seem to think a deal with Saab for a small number(4 perhaps)of older Saabs is doable. Others then pitch in with the impossibility of having a 24 hour instant reaction force and having a score of pilots permanently on call etc.

    I think we should not be trying to match the military blocks in their posturing abilities. We should however be capable of actually displaying an actual presence up there. Get the aircraft and formulate our own (affordable) patrol policy. For want of something better we could call it "Russian Roulette". IF anyone is flying something or somewhere they shouldn't be they should have in the back of their minds the "possibility" that they might find a Grippen with a Sidewinder on their wingtip.
    We need to be able to patrol our airspace....Not defend it from the US airforce. I think it would be a good idea to discuss what we can do that might be "affordable" and explained to the population as a national policing obligation as a non-aligned country.
    Last edited by Galloglass; 31st July 2016 at 13:35.

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  24. #40
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    Are there any reliable stats on the frequency that aircraft in stealth mode have executed unauthorised penetrations of Irish airspace?

  25. #41
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    Ask the IAA, the primary radar operators.....the 9 pilots who got their wings are filling the shoes of the lot that have left. Air corps pilots often had as few as 300 hrs a year and they were glad to have it. If they are getting their 900 a year, then that's because of the Casa, the Defender and increased military heli tempo. It's no comparison with a fast jet pilot in a NATO country getting 300 hrs on a combat aircraft. In fact, in some countries, FJ pilots were getting 150 hrs a year (and less) because of budget cuts, on the primary fighters and filling in with trainer time to stay current. I recall one MiG 21 operator in post Warpac-days giving their pilots 40 hrs on type and the same on L-29/39 and NATO regarded them as unsafe and below combat readiness. So, if you dream about Irish Gripens, be prepared to fund 300 hrs a year on FJ and/or Hawk or L39 to stay up to par. Now, you are getting into silly money so it comes back to leasing in an AD package from Sweden or the UK. Don't forget we have no SAM or AAA defence of any decent standing, so new radar would simply be to tell us where the naughty people are.

  26. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Are there any reliable stats on the frequency that aircraft in stealth mode have executed unauthorised penetrations of Irish airspace?
    Nope. that is why I want the radar.

  27. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by zone 1 View Post
    what is the point in having the radar if you cant go up and have look.
    We're hoping the politicos cone to the same conclusion once the radar is running!

  28. #44
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    so we get radar then what call UK and say come over have look for us theres something in our airspace..

  29. #45
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    Some great fantasy going on here!

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  31. #46
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    I'm not so sure it's fantasy anymore. The sense I got from answers to Dail questions suggested to me that the minister knows it's a gap but that it's a serious budget increase and it ain't happening in a hurry. It's a more nuanced position than "can't buy them and sure what would we be needing that for anyway?"

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  33. #47
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    The "funny" part is those who are up in arms in the dail about various perceived military air (and sea) incursions, are the very same ones who would object loudest should a single cent be spent on anything to prevent or deter such incursions.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  35. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    The "funny" part is those who are up in arms in the dail about various perceived military air (and sea) incursions, are the very same ones who would object loudest should a single cent be spent on anything to prevent or deter such incursions.
    Well those double standards aren't exactly new are they...

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  37. #49
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    I originally mooted the idea of additional IAA controlled Primary RRH's, basically to cut expenses for the DoD/DF - but I think Jetjock raised some good counter points to that idea in the other thread.

    It probably(?) would be cheaper to have civilian spec, civilian operated, long range primary radar with the picture shared in Bal. But those systems wont be equipped for ECCM and other modes.

    If that's the road the State went down, then ideally I'd like to the DF being equipped in its own right with a couple of Thales GM200 or Giraffe 4A medium range systems - very deployable, ECCM, counter battery/C-RAM capabilities and can integrate into modern AD networks.

    I don't think there's any chance of IAC fastjets in the next 20 years, but that's no reason to remain in ignorance of activity in our airspace.

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  39. #50
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    so say at 1000 hrs tomorrow the RAF/NATS tells the IAA there is a Bear with no transponder on flying in Irish controlled airspace off the West coast.

    How long will it take one of these mobile radars to get from Athlone or Dublin to Donegal?

    When it arrives there it still can't detect it as it doesn't have the range.

    Even if it could can it be linked into the IAA radar picture
    Last edited by DeV; 1st August 2016 at 16:17.

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