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  1. #76
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    Irish controlled airspace extends over 150 miles offshore.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Irish controlled airspace extends over 150 miles offshore.
    And?

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    And?
    What is GM200 max range (in ideal conditions)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    Agreed on the 4A - it and GM200 offer very similar capabilities and the DF have an existing relationship with Saab/Bofors.

    IMO long range sets are a non runner for the Defence Forces - cost and capabilities they offer aren't the right fit. Long range work can be covered by civilian sets & infrastructure - we don't need things like ECCM and ballistic missile tracking in that domain.

    The GM200 and 4A are ideal in terms of area defence; tracking non co-operative manouevering targets at low/med/high level and guiding any assets/missiles at them. Ditto with small drones.

    Their abilitity to track mortars and artillery - where they're going to hit and where they've been launched from - also sets them apart and would make them very useful for overseas deployments.

    If anything like Chad comes around again, you could see L118's making the journey overseas too.

    Don't get me wrong 4x GM400's would be nice, but GM200/4A's would still be required and given the budget it's one or the other, not both. The GM200/4A offer more operational capabilities to the DF. The 4A is a particularly good shout if there's a chance the NS will be looking for something in that class for the MRV/EPV.
    I concur on the EPV. And one could move 2 * 4a next to the LR primaries in Kerry and Donegal if trouble arose. Not that I would not prefer Smart-L in those spots.
    Last edited by Graylion; 3rd August 2016 at 08:12.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    What is GM200 max range (in ideal conditions)?
    In ideal conditions, it would spot you at around 12,000 miles Dev.

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  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post

    Along with this we have to remember EU battle groups are the main game in town, and the importance of developing our istar capabilities...

    At the moment we have a credible ground based ISTAR force, but the one thing the conflict in Ukraine has proven is that the Russians are far better at Electronic warfare than anybody thought and ahead the west, and building on Afghanistan signals intelligence is far more important as even the poorest insurgent today has an iPhone. On the ground I would have guessed that in the future they’ll look at something like the Roke Resolve man pack and vehicle system and the development of Light Electronic Warfare Teams for ISTAR Company

    However you can’t get away from the fact that there is an ISR gap in the air. The Cessna replacement will in the short term meet and for the first time provide a deployable capability overseas in fairly low threat environments providing a credible capability to complement the ground based Istar capability the army has developing, (which is why they want something in the PC12NG class)

    But it also leaves a gap for far more dangerous missions, and I think that we could learn from the Italians who used AMX and Tornados in in the ISTAR role in Libya and Afghanistan, with the Reccelite advanced reconnaissance pods able to deliver a real time capability in the ISTAR role. A force of four or so light fighters in the M-346FT class available for overseas missions with a sophisticated reconnaissance pods, data links and a self defence capability of a couple of sidewinders, with a secondary Close air support capability, would be a real force multiplier, (you'd need about 12 in total)

    As for ground air defence, it’s a real and emerging threat but again going back to the Ukraine and middle east, the threat in the air comes from drones, it explains why ordnance was thinking of experimenting with the old 20mm cannons on they took off the AML’s on as RWS a few months ago, and yes, why the upgrade in the white paper around air defence is likely to see a new version of Giraffe available for overseas deployments.
    Replied here: http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...427#post443427

  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    In ideal conditions, it would spot you at around 12,000 miles Dev.
    Ah 400km more like

  9. #83
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    In ideal conditions, it would spot you at around 12,000 miles Dev.
    Strange because the Thales website lists it as "extended detection range: 250 km surveillance mode"
    https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/world...ter-200-gm-200

  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Strange because the Thales website lists it as "extended detection range: 250 km surveillance mode"
    https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/world...ter-200-gm-200
    I was jo.. oh never mind.. I'm weary of you at this stage.

    Ignore the image I gave with a range of 100/250km respectively, ignore the fact I was arguing for IAA operated civ long range primary radar with, not instead of, upgraded radar capability within the DF.

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  12. #85
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    Detection range for what?

    A TU-95 BEAR has the RCS of a WWI battleship, it could be flying on the far side of the moon and a 1950's era radar could see it - a TU-160 BLACKJACK, or a B-1B however are very different stories, detection range at 25,000ft might be only a third or a quarter of that which you'd see a BEAR at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    I was jo.. oh never mind.. I'm weary of you at this stage.

    Ignore the image I gave with a range of 100/250km respectively, ignore the fact I was arguing for IAA operated civ long range primary radar with, not instead of, upgraded radar capability within the DF.
    BTW - 100 km engagement range. I can't really see us acquiring SAMs anytime soon.

  14. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    BTW - 100 km engagement range. I can't really see us acquiring SAMs anytime soon.
    Well nothing in the NASAMS class in the life of the White Paper but at least G4A/GM200 offer a potential upgrade path to that level of capability in the future.

    If LR surveillance can be farmed out to the IAA it leaves more money for the DOD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    Well nothing in the NASAMS class in the life of the White Paper but at least G4A/GM200 offer a potential upgrade path to that level of capability in the future.

    If LR surveillance can be farmed out to the IAA it leaves more money for the DOD.
    Air defence in Ireland in reality is all about politics and egos, doesn’t matter who’s in power, be it Enda, Micheal or Gerry, they all want to hob nob with world leaders and host EU conference and can’t do that unless there is limited defence against non-conventional air threats. Think about it, they nearly spent as much on the PC9 that have no real world military value as they did on the mowag fleet, and they did it because back in 1997 PWC told them that they couldn’t host conferences or have the US president here without that capability. That’s why the found the money for the PC-9, and giraffe and Rbs-70, and frankly that’s all they’re interested in when it comes to air defence.

    If the state were to spend big money on air defence radars in reality the only choice is the Giraffe AMB. It’s in service with the UK meaning advantages could be taken in training as well as Sweden our battle group partners. If you look at the orbat for the Nordic battle group there is a local air picture unit of about 20 men that has two giraffe AMB.

    However the defence forces would need three to deploy a local air picture unit of any description and with the attached goodies that’s an eye watering 60 million. It’s so expensive the UK for example only have six in service, and Australia only have three

    The Giraffe MK IV might not be the most modern radar system but it has advantages, it’s actually a good system for point defence and air policing, it was designed from the start for working with the RBS-70, it was dirt cheap, although dated had never been used, and often forgotten useful for training the istar company at home before they deploy overseas and work with Swedens giraffe AMB

    If they’re going to spend any money on radars for the defence forces in the coming decade it will be to replace the Giraffe Mk 4 and I’d reckon they’ll go for Raytheon’s Improved Sentinel Air defence radar. It’s far more affordable than the Giraffe AMB; Latvia got four for about 20 million last year. It’s a good system for working with point defence systems like RBS-70 and its eventual successor. It would allow the capabilities for the two existing regiments to be maintained, and allow a battle group sized force to be deployed in the field if necessary in a conflict zone, while still allowing for limited air defence at home to be maintained.

    Unlike the giraffe amb it can’t do weapons location, however that’s not really a problem as such, the state would get more utility from buying the us army’s lcmr (light weight counter mortar radar), which retail for under a million each, and would provide excellent use in defending static bases a la chad, and also monitoring cease fires and the like; the brit are experimenting with integrating it into their isr company for the eu battle group.
    Last edited by paul g; 3rd August 2016 at 16:37.

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  17. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    In ideal conditions, it would spot you at around 12,000 miles Dev.
    One of the ideal conditions being the earth is flat
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  19. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    One of the ideal conditions being the earth is flat
    No, Dev being from outer space ...

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  21. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post

    Unlike the giraffe amb it can’t do weapons location, however that’s not really a problem as such, the state would get more utility from buying the us army’s lcmr (light weight counter mortar radar), which retail for under a million each, and would provide excellent use in defending static bases a la chad, and also monitoring cease fires and the like; the brit are experimenting with integrating it into their isr company for the eu battle group.
    How does the LCMR compare to Giraffe 1X? To me this radar looks like the good option for the irish forces: small, mobile and enough range for mortar defence and control of VSHORADS, which is what we have. Why buy something more expensive for our mobile forces? We are either working in the EU battlegroups where other nations supply the radar or at home, where we come back to the LR radar discussion.
    Last edited by Graylion; 4th August 2016 at 08:34.

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  23. #92
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    if for nothing other than replacement of obsolete equipment, then buy it. I'd imagine membership of the EU battle group confers a need to have as modern a set of equipments as is possible. If the bar is set at eight-wheeled AFVs, then that's what has to be bought,etc,etc

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    would we like C-RAM to go with that? And if so, what? the Leonardo Draco 76mm strikes me as a nice universal support gun.

  25. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    ...We are either working in the EU battlegroups where other nations supply the radar...
    i think this in an unfortunate attitude to take in strategic terms - basing your doctrine, diplomacy and defence and security policy on the principle that someone else will always bring the expensive gear might be termed 'couragous'. its an insult, it means to do something dumber than pork.

    it also ignores the nature of the equipment and how its used - this type of locating equipment is employed at Coy and even Pln+ locations: it would seem to me foolish to build in a requirement for multi-national structures and formations at the Coy and Pln level - such formations require regular joint training, and create organisational friction even in the most well-honed formations, they are a necessary evil and as such should only be brought about when no other option exists. they never, ever work quite as well is if one nation had the resources and skills to do the job on its own.

    to swing back to the political and strategic, Ireland already doesn't bring airlift, or battlefield mobility, or armour, or artillery, or logistics, or air support: its domestic politics mean than its a somewhere between unknown and unreliable as a military partner - if Ireland goes any further down the road of 'we'll provide some of the bodies, but you have to bring all the gear, and oh yes, we might just bale on you if the politics look bad', then no one is going to want to be your partner. hence loss of friends and loss of influence...

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  27. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    i think this in an unfortunate attitude to take in strategic terms - basing your doctrine, diplomacy and defence and security policy on the principle that someone else will always bring the expensive gear might be termed 'couragous'. its an insult, it means to do something dumber than pork.

    it also ignores the nature of the equipment and how its used - this type of locating equipment is employed at Coy and even Pln+ locations: it would seem to me foolish to build in a requirement for multi-national structures and formations at the Coy and Pln level - such formations require regular joint training, and create organisational friction even in the most well-honed formations, they are a necessary evil and as such should only be brought about when no other option exists. they never, ever work quite as well is if one nation had the resources and skills to do the job on its own.

    to swing back to the political and strategic, Ireland already doesn't bring airlift, or battlefield mobility, or armour, or artillery, or logistics, or air support: its domestic politics mean than its a somewhere between unknown and unreliable as a military partner - if Ireland goes any further down the road of 'we'll provide some of the bodies, but you have to bring all the gear, and oh yes, we might just bale on you if the politics look bad', then no one is going to want to be your partner. hence loss of friends and loss of influence...
    Agreed. Oh so agreed. OTOP I think Ireland needs to specialize - other nations do that too - and decide where to invest and where to rely on partners. Germany is buying 60 A-400Ms and is clearly specializing in air transport. Ireland is specializing in ISTAR, so let's get the cool equipment for that and leave other expensive kit for a mate to bring to the party.

    Edit: As for transporting the ISTAR company I'd like a Damen logics crossover for transporting it.
    Last edited by Graylion; 4th August 2016 at 15:07. Reason: amending

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  29. #96
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    Are you a salesman for Damen?
    Just visiting

  30. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Are you a salesman for Damen?
    No - I am just convinced by their products

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  32. #98
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    last government talked about this: http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1577106.ece

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    No - I am just convinced by their products
    Have you any experience of them?
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  34. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    talk is cheap

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