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  • #31
    As for the logic of sticking a large gun like the 120mm on a 8x8 such as the Centauro rather than ATGW'S is
    (a) Rate of fire, a good gun crew will get up to 10 rounds off per minute. Most missile launchers are either single shot or maximum of 4 rounds.
    (B) The price per round for a good ATGW round is 10-20 times that of a 120mm APFSDS
    (c) The weight of a Centauro is half that of a MBT, this means it can be airlifted by a plane such as A400m or Kawasaki C2
    (d) You get two big bang for your money, first when it fires and then again when it hits something
    Last edited by EUFighter; 29 August 2016, 16:39.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
      As for the logic of sticking a large gun like the 120mm on a 8x8 such as the Centauro rather than ATGW'S is
      (a) Rate of fire, a good gun crew will get up to 10 rounds off per minute. Most missile launchers are either single shot or maximum of 4 rounds.
      (B) The price per round for a good ATGW round is 10-20 times that of a 120mm APFSDS
      (c) The weight of a Centauro is half that of a MBT, this means it can be airlifted by a plane such as A400m or Kawasaki C2
      (d) You get two big bang for your money, first when it fires and then again when it hits something
      But you can stick ATGW on APC - not so much a 120mm. As for mixing it up with more modern MBTs, that is a losing proposition of course. I am quite frankly more thinking given our Nordic buddies a hand in the Baltics if so needed. For Africa I agree that a gun is probably better. Do we know what 90mm the South Africans used and how it compares with the Cockerill 90 MP?
      Last edited by Graylion; 29 August 2016, 17:21.

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      • #33
        What you can stick on an APC depends on what payload it can carry. APC's such as the CV90 series or the AMV-XP have a maximum vehicle weight of 35tons. This gives them enough payload to carry a turret with a 105mm or 120mm. Of course then is no space for anyone other than the crew.
        For an IFV version the Hitfist turret can be fitted with Spike missiles alongside the 30mm chaingun.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          What you can stick on an APC depends on what payload it can carry. APC's such as the CV90 series or the AMV-XP have a maximum vehicle weight of 35tons. This gives them enough payload to carry a turret with a 105mm or 120mm. Of course then is no space for anyone other than the crew.
          For an IFV version the Hitfist turret can be fitted with Spike missiles alongside the 30mm chaingun.
          Buy why have a manned turret? These guys think they are history. And I am not sure about IFVs. I'd go with a decently armed APC. As I said before - Samson Dual with 2 added ATGM. If every APC carries ATGM this could make life more difficult for armour.
          Last edited by Graylion; 29 August 2016, 20:20.

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          • #35
            So what would you battalion look like if it incorporates, say 120mm, T7 and AMOS?

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            • #36
              It would get to fire about once every ten years for a start. The more pressing need is more a Scorpion replacement and a revamp of the Mowags.

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              • #37
                I would have one platoon of 4 AMV-120's, a battery of 4 AMV-T7's and a battery of 4 AMV-AMOS's.
                3 companies of AMV's each with 4 platoons of 2 AMV-35's and 2 AMV's with a dual RWS's.
                I would have 2 platoons with AMV's fitted for ISTAR /RSTA

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  I would have one platoon of 4 AMV-120's, a battery of 4 AMV-T7's and a battery of 4 AMV-AMOS's.
                  3 companies of AMV's each with 4 platoons of 2 AMV-35's and 2 AMV's with a dual RWS's.
                  I would have 2 platoons with AMV's fitted for ISTAR /RSTA
                  Why the mixed guns in the infantry platoons?

                  What is RSTA? And the ISTAR platoons need drones IMO.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                    What is RSTA? And the ISTAR platoons need drones IMO.
                    Recconnaissance, Surveillance and Target Acquisition

                    Drones carried in the vehicles

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                    • #40
                      The cars won't be replaced until 2020 from what I have heard. So powers that be have plenty of time to put out a realistic tender and let select crews test them. I'd say they'll stick with near enough the weapons systems they have with exception of 30mm turn into a rws version. Possibility of a bigger gun for Cav element is being talked about but is simply a suggestion.
                      As for rws with and anti armour capability, I agree but ca t see it happening.
                      Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

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                      • #41
                        The reasons for fitting two different systems is as follows:

                        AMV -35 is more for open country where it can provide long range support to dismounted troops. The 35mm proved very effective in Afghanistan where the Danes had their CV9035's. They could engage at long range and destroy Taliban even when protected by thick local mud walls.

                        AMV with a RWS is for urban areas where sometimes the firepower of the 35 would be too much. Also the long barrel of any decent cannon would restrict the turret rotation in tight alleys. The smaller RWS weapons do not have this problem.

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                        • #42
                          The debate about RWS's versus turret will go on for a long time. I can see the advantage of both, sure a RWS gives better protection but the turret allows the commander to get a better situation awareness when they stick there head out of a high turret. And yes sadly this is confirmed by the numbers of Israeli tank commanders killed as even today they stick there heads out for a better view.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                            But you can stick ATGW on APC - not so much a 120mm. As for mixing it up with more modern MBTs, that is a losing proposition of course. I am quite frankly more thinking given our Nordic buddies a hand in the Baltics if so needed. For Africa I agree that a gun is probably better. Do we know what 90mm the South Africans used and how it compares with the Cockerill 90 MP?
                            The SA 90mm was a licence-built version of the GIAT 90mm, so if I'm not mistaken the SADF noddy cars were using the same weapon as Ireland's. As I said, they were considered obsolete by 1990 and were mounting anti-tank missiles as well. The Cockerill firing APFSDS sounds better, but is it better enough to be worth considering?

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                            • #44
                              The Stryker MGS had a 105mm fitted to basically a Piranha III. The CM32, the Centauro and japanese MCV 8x8 tank destroyers all have a 105mm gun. Although the italians are upgrading to a 120mm.

                              I would say skip the 90mm and go for one of the bigger calibre weapons. 105/120mm ammo is more widely available.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                                By the late 1980s the 90mm was proving to have great difficulty penetrating the upgraded armour on Angolan T55s. Repeated hits and luck was the only chance their HEAT rounds had. That's why they developed the 76mm high velocity gun, and you're right.. Little apart from T55s to worry about in southern Africa. Denel did stick a 105 on the rooikat for the as yet non-existent export market.

                                There is an obsession with 90mm guns on armoured vehicles on this board that borders on the ridiculous, as it’s an old low velocity gun, and the type of ammunition it fires is also dated. As you rightly point out the SADF were lucky and truth be told had Angolan tank crews higher levels of training it would have been a different story .I suspect that many who praise it have never seen it or 30mm ammunition in action, 30mm is miles ahead

                                The us army have a paper project at the moment called "mobile protected firepower" which is essentially going to provide light tank for the us army sometime in the early 20’s, from the little that’s been published about it, the vehicle appears to have a turret which will have a 50mm bushmaster and twin javelins, which they believe will provide direct fire support for the infantry units and take anything up to T72 level armour out. There are other projects in development provide cannons on AFV between the 50-60mm range (the Germans even mounted a 57mm bofors on their marders back in the 1980’s) and I suspect in ten years’ time guns in that range of calibre will increasingly be fitted to AFV.

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