Thanks Thanks:  17
Likes Likes:  17
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 38 of 38
  1. #26
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,788
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ArdMhacha View Post
    I'm in an infantry unit. It's mainly the promotion issue that is sapping the enthusiasm among Ptes in my unit. Lads who you would've thought would jump all over a Pots course are know questioning the point of putting themselves through the hassle. Getting screwed for 6 months in the BTC to be waiting years for a set of stripes. I enjoy my job and I try to approach it as enthusiastically as possible but the prospect of spending my career as a Pte is driving me and a lot of my mates to start looking elsewhere

    Is it due to a lack of vancanies or what?

  2. #27
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,788
    Post Thanks / Like
    Related to the whole morale issue is money

    http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1360
    PDFORRA going after the money alright but what about other issues


    Look at the amount of maladministration, selection for overseas and courses etc complaints to ODF. It needs to be fixed!

  3. Likes TangoSierra liked this post
  4. #28
    C/S ArdMhacha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Newry
    Posts
    282
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yes DeV, mainly a lack of vacancies.
    They don't open up too often in my unit as a lot of the older Cpls/ Sgts are on Border Allowance and won't take a vacancy elsewhere as they'll lose the allowance, this obviously leaves few vacancies opening up for Pots qualified Ptes. Shittu situation really

  5. #29
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,788
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ArdMhacha View Post
    Yes DeV, mainly a lack of vacancies.
    They don't open up too often in my unit as a lot of the older Cpls/ Sgts are on Border Allowance and won't take a vacancy elsewhere as they'll lose the allowance, this obviously leaves few vacancies opening up for Pots qualified Ptes. Shittu situation really
    Isn't it personal to the holder?

    Even if they are posted away they keep it, no?

    Or is it leadership failure?

  6. #30
    Lt General apod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Ass in the grass.
    Posts
    4,679
    Post Thanks / Like
    Border allowance is personal to holder.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  7. #31
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,788
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Border allowance is personal to holder.
    So I've if posted (permanently) to Cork they keep it, yes?

  8. #32
    Private 3*
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    34
    Post Thanks / Like
    I believe if they take a promotion outside of a border unit they lose it

  9. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
  10. #33
    Colonel
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,436
    Post Thanks / Like
    Workplace Climate in the Defence Forces Phase 2: Results of the Focus Group Research

    http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/WCinDF

  11. Thanks DeV, Truck Driver thanked for this post
    Likes Truck Driver liked this post
  12. #34
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,788
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Workplace Climate in the Defence Forces Phase 2: Results of the Focus Group Research

    http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/WCinDF
    No quick fixes there in a lot of cases.

  13. #35
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Baltinglass
    Posts
    351
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    No quick fixes there in a lot of cases.
    Pay should be fixable easily enough. Give everybody a 1k raise this year and next year again (and then maybe 500€ per year for 3 years). Costs 15M€ for the 1k

  14. #36
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Baltinglass
    Posts
    351
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'll pick one recommendation at random:

    "Recommendations for Promotions system.
    While all focus groups recognised the legitimacy of a system based on meritocracy. A number of fundamental problems stemming from the promotions system were identified. These are having a detrimental effect across the Defence Forces in terms of continuity of personnel, unit loyalty which in turn is affecting unit effectiveness, family issues which are discussed in detail in the section on promotion. Our key recommendations on the issue of promotions are:

    There is widespread frustration among all ranks that there is a lack of formal career structure and guidance. That people feel it is up to them entirely tow work out how to develop career and get promoted. This has resulted in a ‘grab what you can’ culture with regard to courses and points in an effort to maximise promotion potential. We would recommend that a medium to long term strategy would be to introduce some form of structured career service within the Defence Forces

    Aligned to recommendation 1 .The point’s race that has developed needs to be more controlled. Many focus groups suggested putting a cap on the amount of points and courses that are needed for promotion. This in conjunction with more structured mentoring would enable people to balance the time spent chasing promotion with focusing on their work in units and also family life. This would also allow people to pick courses that are more relevant to their job and address concerns raised regarding the dilution of specialisms.

    There was widespread feedback among the focus groups at all levels. Points should be given for unit loyalty. There was unanimous feedback that unit loyalty is punished. While personnel recognised the need for gaining some experience in places such as DFHQ, battlegroup, overseas, it was felt that the seeming total lack of disregard for unit loyalty is detrimental to the efficacy and readiness of units and is exacerbating the constant movement of Officers (and now NCOs). This in turn is affecting the camaraderie in units and the credibility of the appraisal system Therefore we recommend that a system for assigning points for unit loyalty be developed

    There was concern across all ranks as to the notice given for courses and also for the transparency of selection for these. This needs to be addressed.

    There was a call among many focus groups for courses to be modularised (particularly lengthy courses) to facilitate those people living outside the Newbridge/Curragh/Dublin area. There were also calls for decentralisation of courses and training. We would recommend that this be examined.

    The 5 year contract for Privates was raised in all focus groups as problematic. Firstly Privates are finding it difficult to access courses and to get overseas to fulfil the terms of contract and to access promotion. This is leading to a widespread stress and
    disengagement among privates which is also an issue for concern among officers and NCOs managing them. "

    Overall this reads like absolutely abysmal management. The first step here likely needs to be seeng _why_ management is so bad and then going about fixing it.
    Last edited by Graylion; 21st July 2017 at 12:50.

  15. #37
    BQMS
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    509
    Post Thanks / Like
    I might be wittering here but...
    The problem with unit loyalty is that overseas service is required and all overseas units are scratch units. The solution of sending complete units overseas is probably ( those in the know, correct me):
    There isn't enough overseas postings to rotate many units through in the service life of a private, or
    Few units are actually complete and functional enough to deploy as they stand, or
    Sending an entire unit from any barracks leaves a huge gap at home.
    Or all of the above?
    Last edited by expat01; 21st July 2017 at 14:00.

  16. Thanks Graylion thanked for this post
  17. #38
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,788
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Pay should be fixable easily enough. Give everybody a 1k raise this year and next year again (and then maybe 500€ per year for 3 years). Costs 15M€ for the 1k
    It would be easy if it was delegated to the DF to set pay rates

    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    I'll pick one recommendation at random:

    "Recommendations for Promotions system.
    While all focus groups recognised the legitimacy of a system based on meritocracy. A number of fundamental problems stemming from the promotions system were identified. These are having a detrimental effect across the Defence Forces in terms of continuity of personnel, unit loyalty which in turn is affecting unit effectiveness, family issues which are discussed in detail in the section on promotion. Our key recommendations on the issue of promotions are:

    There is widespread frustration among all ranks that there is a lack of formal career structure and guidance. That people feel it is up to them entirely tow work out how to develop career and get promoted. This has resulted in a ‘grab what you can’ culture with regard to courses and points in an effort to maximise promotion potential. We would recommend that a medium to long term strategy would be to introduce some form of structured career service within the Defence Forces

    Aligned to recommendation 1 .The point’s race that has developed needs to be more controlled. Many focus groups suggested putting a cap on the amount of points and courses that are needed for promotion. This in conjunction with more structured mentoring would enable people to balance the time spent chasing promotion with focusing on their work in units and also family life. This would also allow people to pick courses that are more relevant to their job and address concerns raised regarding the dilution of specialisms.

    There was widespread feedback among the focus groups at all levels. Points should be given for unit loyalty. There was unanimous feedback that unit loyalty is punished. While personnel recognised the need for gaining some experience in places such as DFHQ, battlegroup, overseas, it was felt that the seeming total lack of disregard for unit loyalty is detrimental to the efficacy and readiness of units and is exacerbating the constant movement of Officers (and now NCOs). This in turn is affecting the camaraderie in units and the credibility of the appraisal system Therefore we recommend that a system for assigning points for unit loyalty be developed


    There was concern across all ranks as to the notice given for courses and also for the transparency of selection for these. This needs to be addressed.

    There was a call among many focus groups for courses to be modularised (particularly lengthy courses) to facilitate those people living outside the Newbridge/Curragh/Dublin area. There were also calls for decentralisation of courses and training. We would recommend that this be examined.

    The 5 year contract for Privates was raised in all focus groups as problematic. Firstly Privates are finding it difficult to access courses and to get overseas to fulfil the terms of contract and to access promotion. This is leading to a widespread stress and
    disengagement among privates which is also an issue for concern among officers and NCOs managing them. "

    Overall this reads like absolutely abysmal management. The first step here likely needs to be seeng _why_ management is so bad and then going about fixing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    I might be wittering here but...
    The problem with unit loyalty is that overseas service is required and all overseas units are scratch units. The solution of sending complete units overseas is probably ( those in the know, correct me):
    There isn't enough overseas postings to rotate many units through in the service life of a private, or
    Few units are actually complete and functional enough to deploy as they stand, or
    Sending an entire unit from any barracks leaves a huge gap at home.
    Or all of the above?
    It certainly doesn't help matters.

    The DF is facilitating people getting qualifications/training who are leaving a gap in the unit. The Civil Service (including the DF) was encouraging people to take career breaks etc. These also mean the lot of those remaining is worse as depending on their appointment they could end up with 3 times the amount of work.

    An easy fix would be to say get a central register of where people are based who are seeking transfer (purely on economic grounds) and people could potentially just job swap. Eg there's a Cpl in Aiken who is from Cork who could potentially get an appointment in Limerick or Kilkenny if there was someone who wanted to swap.

    Get rid of the lead unit concept, I'd keep formation (but with 2 main troop missions and 2 Bdes....), each unit provides a pln.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •