Defence Forces Personnel Strength Figures

[TangoSierra]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ed-461901.html

[TangoSierra]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...-36276312.html

Recruits applying to forces 'to protect benefits'


Paul Williams
October 31 2017 2:30 AM
Many people applying to join the Defence Forces are doing so to protect their social welfare payments and to satisfy the officials that they are actively seeking employment, the Irish Independent can reveal.

Confidential figures seen by this newspaper show that a staggering 70pc of applicants in recent Defence Force recruitment campaigns did not present themselves for the initial physical fitness test.

[expat01]

We’ve been here before, in the 1980s. The difference now is that, with unemployment less than half of what it was then, there are many more options for the citizenry and serving soldiers. It is no longer necessary to hold to your army job as a meager but guaranteed income no matter what the conditions. An otherwise improving economy is therefore even worse news as the DF becomes less and less attractive.
Recruiting is difficult throughout the western world, Ireland’s Defence Forces compound the issue by having a low profile except for everyone knowing that very little is spent on defence - and lately, that pay and conditions are bad. If anyone is paying attention, next year’s budget might contain a band aid for pay, but I don’t see how the rot can Be stopped without an announced commitment, now, to serious spending increases on the order of 5% per year for five years, excluding capex.

[expat01]

Actually, almost down to a third of the 1980s unemployment rate, with a far better average of pay and conditions.

[DeV]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...-36276312.html

Recruits applying to forces 'to protect benefits'


Paul Williams
October 31 2017 2:30 AM
Many people applying to join the Defence Forces are doing so to protect their social welfare payments and to satisfy the officials that they are actively seeking employment, the Irish Independent can reveal.

Confidential figures seen by this newspaper show that a staggering 70pc of applicants in recent Defence Force recruitment campaigns did not present themselves for the initial physical fitness test.

I’d imagine the numbers were high pre-recession as well

We’ve been here before, in the 1980s. The difference now is that, with unemployment less than half of what it was then, there are many more options for the citizenry and serving soldiers. It is no longer necessary to hold to your army job as a meager but guaranteed income no matter what the conditions. An otherwise improving economy is therefore even worse news as the DF becomes less and less attractive.
Recruiting is difficult throughout the western world, Ireland’s Defence Forces compound the issue by having a low profile except for everyone knowing that very little is spent on defence - and lately, that pay and conditions are bad. If anyone is paying attention, next year’s budget might contain a band aid for pay, but I don’t see how the rot can Be stopped without an announced commitment, now, to serious spending increases on the order of 5% per year for five years, excluding capex.

recruiting isn’t the issue. There is no shortage of people joining, the issue is keeping those who join

[expat01]

Or get the number through training that you recruited in the first place. If the Indo is right and 70% of applicants truly had no intention of joining, the pool is far smaller than we thought, and only 70% of that pool were fit for service or willing to continue. Passing out less than 500 of 700 recruits sounds like a shortage to me. But my main point was the attractiveness of the Defence Forces as a career going forward,. Retention is the big issue, recruitment will become one as word gets around.

[DeV]

Or get the number through training that you recruited in the first place. If the Indo is right and 70% of applicants truly had no intention of joining, the pool is far smaller than we thought, and only 70% of that pool were fit for service or willing to continue. Passing out less than 500 of 700 recruits sounds like a shortage to me. But my main point was the attractiveness of the Defence Forces as a career going forward,. Retention is the big issue, recruitment will become one as word gets around.

No that means that would mean everyone that joined has to pass recruit training (even if injured, didn’t complete training, changed their mind, their circumstances changed or they are found as not suitable).

Why do people not turn up for fitness testing? They didn’t know they had to do one, they are unfit, dates don’t suit, new job, etc etc

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish...st-lot-6340365

[na grohmit�]

I consider my own nephew as a prime example of where recruiting has gone wrong.
Throughout his teens he had an interest in all things military (no thanks to me). He wanted to join the army, to be a Grade 1 groundpounder. I showed him how he could take his military interest and instead go to the NS, play with all the guns, and maybe become a mech, get a trade, and when his time is up, walk with a qualification.
As time passed and he did more research he saw he could go to college, get Mar Eng qualification as a civvy, see the world, and then maybe return to the NS as a DE Eng Officer, and see out his time in the military life, should he so decide.
However since he begun his education in NMCI he is seeing a whole world of nice things he can buy and do on civvy pay that would only be a dream on Naval pay, the only downside being he would have to spend at most 6 months per year away from home.
Also he has taken up airsoft, which seems to satisfy the military interest he had.

In summary to get the best candidates for the job the DF needs to provide a wage that competes with that available on civvy street for those with the same skillset.
It also needs to provide a work environment that is closer to that seen in the civilian world with living conditions that are not as similar to those found in the average open prison.
We also need to recruit people who want to serve in the DF, and not just join because there was nothing else available.

[DeV]

I consider my own nephew as a prime example of where recruiting has gone wrong.
Throughout his teens he had an interest in all things military (no thanks to me). He wanted to join the army, to be a Grade 1 groundpounder. I showed him how he could take his military interest and instead go to the NS, play with all the guns, and maybe become a mech, get a trade, and when his time is up, walk with a qualification.
As time passed and he did more research he saw he could go to college, get Mar Eng qualification as a civvy, see the world, and then maybe return to the NS as a DE Eng Officer, and see out his time in the military life, should he so decide.
However since he begun his education in NMCI he is seeing a whole world of nice things he can buy and do on civvy pay that would only be a dream on Naval pay, the only downside being he would have to spend at most 6 months per year away from home.
Also he has taken up airsoft, which seems to satisfy the military interest he had.

In summary to get the best candidates for the job the DF needs to provide a wage that competes with that available on civvy street for those with the same skillset.
It also needs to provide a work environment that is closer to that seen in the civilian world with living conditions that are not as similar to those found in the average open prison.
We also need to recruit people who want to serve in the DF, and not just join because there was nothing else available.

I assume that is 6 months away every year

[expat01]

No that means that would mean everyone that joined has to pass recruit training (even if injured, didn’t complete training, changed their mind, their circumstances changed or they are found as not suitable).

Why do people not turn up for fitness testing? They didn’t know they had to do one, they are unfit, dates don’t suit, new job, etc etc

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish...st-lot-6340365

Last first. Dates don't suit? New job? They don't want to be in the army. QED.

Didn't know they had to do one? For God's sake. Neither the army nor anyone else needs them.
Certainly we expect a dropout rate. US Army is around 12%.
British Army dropout rate is also around 30%, and that is considered cause for concern.

So we have a high rate of applicants but only 30 out of 100 are even halfway serious and 21 of those will pass out.
The economy and civilian pay are both growing, fitness levels are down and the newspapers are full of stories about soldiers leaving the service.
but recruitment will not be a problem?

[expat01]

How about when they need to find 1500 recruits per year?

[na grohmit�]

I assume that is 6 months away every year

What confuses you about "per year"?

[DeV]

Last first. Dates don't suit? New job? They don't want to be in the army. QED.

Didn't know they had to do one? For God's sake. Neither the army nor anyone else needs them.
Certainly we expect a dropout rate. US Army is around 12%.
British Army dropout rate is also around 30%, and that is considered cause for concern.

So we have a high rate of applicants but only 30 out of 100 are even halfway serious and 21 of those will pass out.
The economy and civilian pay are both growing, fitness levels are down and the newspapers are full of stories about soldiers leaving the service.
but recruitment will not be a problem?

Recruiting is an issue no one is saying it isn’t. The more serious issue is retention.

If we could recruit 2000 people in the morning, a large proportion would leave within 3 years due to poor pay, terms and conditions, etc. Of course we wouldn’t be able to accommodate, feed, clothe, pay and train that many due to budget restrictions and existing retention issues.

If we can make the “offer” (pay, terms & conditions, etc) better. Less people will leave prematurely and recruiting will be easier.

[expat01]

Recruiting is an issue no one is saying it isn’t. The more serious issue is retention.

If we could recruit 2000 people in the morning, a large proportion would leave within 3 years due to poor pay, terms and conditions, etc. Of course we wouldn’t be able to accommodate, feed, clothe, pay and train that many due to budget restrictions and existing retention issues.

If we can make the “offer” (pay, terms & conditions, etc) better. Less people will leave prematurely and recruiting will be easier.

We seem to be in violent agreement.

[TangoSierra]

Figures from Paul Kehoe and DoD:


Current PDF FTE = 9062

Now subtract the following numbers due to the fact that there is a time associated to become fully competent:

No. In 1st year of Training/Employment (2017) = 645

No. In 2nd year of trg/employment (2016) = 690

No in 3rd year of trg/employment (2015) = 415

SubTotal = 1750

Total effective professionally competent = 9062 - 1750 = 7312

Now subtract numbers serving overseas (633)

At best case scenario the DF is being forced to provide a Military Service Capability based on 9,500 personnel with only 6,679 personnel on island that are professionally developed.

The DF have to provide on island capability with only 70% of its authorised establishment.

Now subtract leave, sick leave, maternity leave, etc etc.

But still the Minister for State thinks there's no crisis, the DoD hires another Assistant Principle Officer and every politician in the country fights tooth and nail to keep unneeded and unwanted barracks in their constituency. Unfortunately as per usual, DF personnel will have to die before action is taken and even then it will be tokenism.

[na grohmit�]

Is it too simplistic to suggest that is because he is an idiot?

[TangoSierra]

Oh ya, forgot the whole trivial Brexit (Good Friday Agreement), Islamic Terrorism and Organised Cybercrime things. Sure it'll be grand. Move along, nothing to see here.

[terrier]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ed-461901.html

This would be the same Paul Kehoe that couldn't do a Ministerial review for the 111th Battalion UNIFIL contingent in Sarsfield last Thursday because he had a cabinet meeting.

[na grohmit�]

Cabinet meetings are held on Tuesday, usually. If it was in Rosslare he'd make it though. Even on a Saturday.
Gobdaw.

[DeV]

Figures from Paul Kehoe and DoD:


Current PDF FTE = 9062

Now subtract the following numbers due to the fact that there is a time associated to become fully competent:

No. In 1st year of Training/Employment (2017) = 645

No. In 2nd year of trg/employment (2016) = 690

No in 3rd year of trg/employment (2015) = 415

SubTotal = 1750

Total effective professionally competent = 9062 - 1750 = 7312

Now subtract numbers serving overseas (633)

At best case scenario the DF is being forced to provide a Military Service Capability based on 9,500 personnel with only 6,679 personnel on island that are professionally developed.

The DF have to provide on island capability with only 70% of its authorised establishment.

Now subtract leave, sick leave, maternity leave, etc etc.

But still the Minister for State thinks there's no crisis, the DoD hires another Assistant Principle Officer and every politician in the country fights tooth and nail to keep unneeded and unwanted barracks in their constituency. Unfortunately as per usual, DF personnel will have to die before action is taken and even then it will be tokenism.

In fairness, I do agree with some of what you say but you are making a few assumptions.

It is much more accurate to look at establishment versus strength by rank and service.

[TangoSierra]

What assumptions? These are written answers from the DoD/Minister

[DeV]

There are serious issues:

Army Capt -13%
Army Lt -31%
Army BSM -11%
Army BQMS -19%
Army CS -27%
Army CQMS -17%
Army Sgt -18%

AC Col -33%
AC Lt Col -21%
AC Capt -21%
AC Lt -54%
AC RSM -13%
AC RQMS -25%
AC FQMS -29%
AC Sgt -23%
AC Cpl -18%
AC Airman -33%

NS Lt -36%
NS SCPO -15%
NS CPO -12%
NS SPO -14%
NS PO -27%
NS LS -26%


That is ignoring those ranks with less than 10% vacancies!!


Supernumeraries:
Army privates +1%
NS Lt Cdr +11%
NS Lt +7%
NS Seaman +24%


Cadets:
Army 151 - which if no one leaves solves the army officer problem
AC 43 - which doesn’t if no one leaves goes a fair way to solving the AC junior officer issue
NS 24 - which comes close to solving the issue if no one leaves

[DeV]

What assumptions? These are written answers from the DoD/Minister

That all the people who were those recruits passed out, that none of them have left after passing out, that none of them are overseas, that number 3 rifleman in 2 Pln isn’t effective at his job (2.5 years after making 3*). Of course the aircraft tech isn’t he is still in training.

That leave can’t be cancelled, that overseas units can’t be brought home.

To me this implies that we should have 9000+ personnel available within x hours who sit on their Bergen waiting for something to happen

[TangoSierra]

That all the people who were those recruits passed out, that none of them have left after passing out, that none of them are overseas, that number 3 rifleman in 2 Pln isn’t effective at his job (2.5 years after making 3*). Of course the aircraft tech isn’t he is still in training.

That leave can’t be cancelled, that overseas units can’t be brought home.

To me this implies that we should have 9000+ personnel available within x hours who sit on their Bergen waiting for something to happen

I qualified it as a "best case scenario". The reality is its much worse.

[DeV]

I qualified it as a "best case scenario". The reality is its much worse.

It doesn’t take 2.5 years to make an effective rifleman