Defence Forces Personnel Strength Figures

[The real Jack]

[trellheim]

@Tangosierra I had read almost every Defence PQ since 1954 which is not something I want to repeat to get those numbers.

[trellheim]

Interesting to see the post-'05 reorg/economic crash flatline down . The Post '12 Reorg then slows things down but its still a horrible slide

[danno]

Interesting to see the post-'05 reorg/economic crash flatline down . The Post '12 Reorg then slows things down but its still a horrible slide

This is it, the most recent/ current trend is unique by being counter cyclical wrt to the economy , taxing-withdrawal of dosh has to be a factor. Having said that, mere restoration of grat etc wont reverse matters to any material extent.

[na grohmití]

Closing the local centres killed it.
For most now, if you don't have your own transport, you cannot be in the reserve.
Before that, the local centres had a large pool to recruit from. They did most training near where they lived, and army transport was used if they needed to go to a centralised location.

Now you have to make your own way to the centralised location, at your own expense. As a result you'll find very few recruits from rural areas any more.

[DeV]

Of course we are assuming that those figures are accurate of course we know they aren't.

Case in point (and let's remember that we are talking in the days of IT). Unfortunately one of my corporals died in 2006 (I think he had about 5 years service. We RO'ed his death.

Obviously at most his TOE would have expired around 2010 and he obviously wasn't posted non-effective or discharged but somehow he received a posting in the 2013 reorg.

The error wasn't at unit level.

[TangoSierra]

@Tangosierra I had read almost every Defence PQ since 1954 which is not something I want to repeat to get those numbers.

There might be an easier way

Need to be able to extract the tables/figures from the search results. There might be a way to automate this?

https://www.kildarestreet.com/search...1-13+major%3A3

https://www.kildarestreet.com/search...&section=wrans

https://www.kildarestreet.com/search...ection=debates

[trellheim]

The figures while not perhaps "correct" are not "incorrect" in certain senses. They very definitely give a clear idea of the relative strengths

[morpheus]

pity someone doesnt "share" these charts in the public domain on twitter or facebook

[trellheim]

That information is entirely public domain ! and collated from Oireachtas reports , its not secret in the slightest. Fun Graph - smooth it out, add straight lines for authorised strength vs actuals , or graph % actual vs establishment which is a much more "truthy" graph

fun Exercise for reader - search kildarestreet or oireachtas.ie for authorized establishment figures going back to 1955

[trellheim]

There might be an easier way

Need to be able to extract the tables/figures from the search results. There might be a way to automate this?

Please define in English the information you want

For example

Strength - PDF Cpl [ Army ] 1955-2016 . Need to filter out NS and AC ? Include FCA /RDF ? Authorised vs Actual ..... Many many times they conflate some of these qualifiers, meaning you have to read the detail answers to find out what is being reported. This is because the questioner asks different information every time, its not standard reporting down the years.

[TangoSierra]

End state:

Graph showing establishment vs strength for all services for as many years as possible

Graph showing establishment vs strength of all ranks for as many years as possible

Overlay graph with periods of time of government and ministers for defence and chiefs of staff

[trellheim]

oK thats a lot of work !!!!

[TangoSierra]

oK thats a lot of work !!!!

That's why I'm attempting to crowd source it

[morpheus]

Where S&S when you need him? he had lots of these sorts of stats already done up

[DeV]

AFAIK the establishment didn't really change between around 1969 and 2005

[TangoSierra]

I am advised by the Military Authorities that 372 General Service Recruits have been enlisted into the Army and 47 General Service Recruits have been enlisted into the Naval Service, to date in 2016. This year some 99 Cadets have been inducted into the Defence Forces.

I am advised by the military authorities that in 2015, 76 officers and 490 members of the enlisted ranks retired or were discharged.

...up to 21 May 2016, 34 officers and 193 in the enlisted ranks have retired or were discharged. In line with human resources policy, there is a significant turnover of personnel in the Permanent Defence Forces due to the requirement to maintain a lower age profile.

Minister of State at the Department of Defence (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debate...discharge#g313

With management yet to identify their key takeaways from the report, the continual exit from the Defence Forces, by all ranks, is running at between 40 and 50 a month. This begs the shocking question, at what point of dysfunction will management engage if ever?
Comdt Earnán Naughton is general secretary of the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers (RACO)

31 May 2016 : DF = 9,137 personnel

30 Sept 2016: DF = 9,044 personnel

= Net loss of 23 personnel per month ( (including recruitment) (Loss of 276 per year)


Based on the answers and figures he gave in the dail
http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...l=1#post446374


The Defence Forces has seen an AVERAGE NET LOSS PER YEAR = -84 (Average from 2010-2015)

If you take the average from 2006 its even higher (NET LOSS per year = -143)


I'm willing to bet by 2020 the DF will be below 8,500.

[The real Jack]

Closing KK, a dublin barracks and going to 1Bde would easily do that, the DF is not going to get bigger any time soon. Even when we have a Paris style event here we'll stick to the dickless "neutral" foreign "policy" so the DF won't grow.

[DeV]

Those numbers (in isolation) are nothing worrying really when you think there are about 400 recruits and 30 cadets inducted annually.

A big issue is promotions IMHO, which effects the income, morale, retention, etc.

[TangoSierra]

Those numbers (in isolation) are nothing worrying really when you think there are about 400 recruits and 30 cadets inducted annually.

A big issue is promotions IMHO, which effects the income, morale, retention, etc.

Those numbers account for induction of Cadets and Recruits. I.e. the DF is shedding more people than it recruits, every year, for the past 10 years.

My guess is that it is a Gov/Dept decision to increase the ratio of post 2011 contracts. By focusing on introducing new contracts (recruitment) and completely ignoring retention, it goes in some way to address the annually increasing pensions budget. This being that post 2011 entrants are cheaper pensions wise than pre 2004 and pre 2011 contracts.

[DeV]

Sorry read the wrong figures

Of course it doesn't say how many of them were on age groups/end of contract

[na grohmití]

All the minister (for state) is interested in is looking good for his consituents. His derision towards his portfolio is clear when you see his oral answer at PQ.
This government has abandoned the Defence Department, relegating it to just another government agency, as important as the CSO, or the Office of Data Protection.

[danno]

A fall off in numbers was inevitable given the spate of Barrack closures , reduction in units and posts.

[Fridge Magnet]

Those numbers (in isolation) are nothing worrying really when you think there are about 400 recruits and 30 cadets inducted annually.

A big issue is promotions IMHO, which effects the income, morale, retention, etc.

400 recruits may well have been inducted but 400 recruits didn't finish training... So using them as a means to say "It's all ok" is just papering over the cracks.

It's a fact that people are leaving the organisation in droves and not because of "natural wastage" or any other buzz words... It's because for many people it's just not a job worth doing anymore. It's not worth the stress, increased workload, time away from home/family and certainly not worth the time spent dealing with utter bullshit. Young lads are passing out as fully trained soldiers and within about a year, will start entertaining the idea of leaving the organisation.

The outlook is bleak for the next few years.

[danno]

If you "listen" carefully to the PQ's etc the terms induction-enlisting are used which begs the question as to how many of these numbers are actually passing out-commissioning. Many are called few...etc.