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  1. #26
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  3. #27
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    @Tangosierra I had read almost every Defence PQ since 1954 which is not something I want to repeat to get those numbers.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  4. #28
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Interesting to see the post-'05 reorg/economic crash flatline down . The Post '12 Reorg then slows things down but its still a horrible slide
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  5. #29
    Major General
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Interesting to see the post-'05 reorg/economic crash flatline down . The Post '12 Reorg then slows things down but its still a horrible slide
    This is it, the most recent/ current trend is unique by being counter cyclical wrt to the economy , taxing-withdrawal of dosh has to be a factor. Having said that, mere restoration of grat etc wont reverse matters to any material extent.

  6. #30
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    Closing the local centres killed it.
    For most now, if you don't have your own transport, you cannot be in the reserve.
    Before that, the local centres had a large pool to recruit from. They did most training near where they lived, and army transport was used if they needed to go to a centralised location.

    Now you have to make your own way to the centralised location, at your own expense. As a result you'll find very few recruits from rural areas any more.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  7. #31
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Of course we are assuming that those figures are accurate of course we know they aren't.

    Case in point (and let's remember that we are talking in the days of IT). Unfortunately one of my corporals died in 2006 (I think he had about 5 years service. We RO'ed his death.

    Obviously at most his TOE would have expired around 2010 and he obviously wasn't posted non-effective or discharged but somehow he received a posting in the 2013 reorg.

    The error wasn't at unit level.
    Last edited by DeV; 14th November 2016 at 08:44.

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  9. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    @Tangosierra I had read almost every Defence PQ since 1954 which is not something I want to repeat to get those numbers.
    There might be an easier way

    Need to be able to extract the tables/figures from the search results. There might be a way to automate this?

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/search...1-13+major%3A3

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/search...&section=wrans

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/search...ection=debates
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 13th November 2016 at 23:40.

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  11. #33
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    The figures while not perhaps "correct" are not "incorrect" in certain senses. They very definitely give a clear idea of the relative strengths
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  13. #34
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    pity someone doesnt "share" these charts in the public domain on twitter or facebook
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  14. #35
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    That information is entirely public domain ! and collated from Oireachtas reports , its not secret in the slightest. Fun Graph - smooth it out, add straight lines for authorised strength vs actuals , or graph % actual vs establishment which is a much more "truthy" graph

    fun Exercise for reader - search kildarestreet or oireachtas.ie for authorized establishment figures going back to 1955
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  15. #36
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    There might be an easier way

    Need to be able to extract the tables/figures from the search results. There might be a way to automate this?
    Please define in English the information you want

    For example

    Strength - PDF Cpl [ Army ] 1955-2016 . Need to filter out NS and AC ? Include FCA /RDF ? Authorised vs Actual ..... Many many times they conflate some of these qualifiers, meaning you have to read the detail answers to find out what is being reported. This is because the questioner asks different information every time, its not standard reporting down the years.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  16. #37
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    End state:

    Graph showing establishment vs strength for all services for as many years as possible

    Graph showing establishment vs strength of all ranks for as many years as possible

    Overlay graph with periods of time of government and ministers for defence and chiefs of staff

  17. #38
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    oK thats a lot of work !!!!
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  18. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    oK thats a lot of work !!!!
    That's why I'm attempting to crowd source it

  19. #40
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    Where S&S when you need him? he had lots of these sorts of stats already done up
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  20. #41
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    AFAIK the establishment didn't really change between around 1969 and 2005

  21. #42
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    I am advised by the Military Authorities that 372 General Service Recruits have been enlisted into the Army and 47 General Service Recruits have been enlisted into the Naval Service, to date in 2016. This year some 99 Cadets have been inducted into the Defence Forces.

    I am advised by the military authorities that in 2015, 76 officers and 490 members of the enlisted ranks retired or were discharged.

    ...up to 21 May 2016, 34 officers and 193 in the enlisted ranks have retired or were discharged. In line with human resources policy, there is a significant turnover of personnel in the Permanent Defence Forces due to the requirement to maintain a lower age profile.

    Minister of State at the Department of Defence (Deputy Paul Kehoe)
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debate...discharge#g313

    With management yet to identify their key takeaways from the report, the continual exit from the Defence Forces, by all ranks, is running at between 40 and 50 a month. This begs the shocking question, at what point of dysfunction will management engage if ever?
    Comdt Earnán Naughton is general secretary of the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers (RACO)


    31 May 2016 : DF = 9,137 personnel

    30 Sept 2016: DF = 9,044 personnel

    = Net loss of 23 personnel per month ( (including recruitment) (Loss of 276 per year)


    Based on the answers and figures he gave in the dail
    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...l=1#post446374


    The Defence Forces has seen an AVERAGE NET LOSS PER YEAR = -84 (Average from 2010-2015)

    If you take the average from 2006 its even higher (NET LOSS per year = -143)


    I'm willing to bet by 2020 the DF will be below 8,500.
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 20th November 2016 at 17:17.

  22. #43
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Closing KK, a dublin barracks and going to 1Bde would easily do that, the DF is not going to get bigger any time soon. Even when we have a Paris style event here we'll stick to the dickless "neutral" foreign "policy" so the DF won't grow.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  23. #44
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Those numbers (in isolation) are nothing worrying really when you think there are about 400 recruits and 30 cadets inducted annually.

    A big issue is promotions IMHO, which effects the income, morale, retention, etc.
    Last edited by DeV; 19th November 2016 at 19:42.

  24. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Those numbers (in isolation) are nothing worrying really when you think there are about 400 recruits and 30 cadets inducted annually.

    A big issue is promotions IMHO, which effects the income, morale, retention, etc.
    Those numbers account for induction of Cadets and Recruits. I.e. the DF is shedding more people than it recruits, every year, for the past 10 years.

    My guess is that it is a Gov/Dept decision to increase the ratio of post 2011 contracts. By focusing on introducing new contracts (recruitment) and completely ignoring retention, it goes in some way to address the annually increasing pensions budget. This being that post 2011 entrants are cheaper pensions wise than pre 2004 and pre 2011 contracts.
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 19th November 2016 at 20:34.

  25. #46
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Sorry read the wrong figures

    Of course it doesn't say how many of them were on age groups/end of contract

  26. #47
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    All the minister (for state) is interested in is looking good for his consituents. His derision towards his portfolio is clear when you see his oral answer at PQ.
    This government has abandoned the Defence Department, relegating it to just another government agency, as important as the CSO, or the Office of Data Protection.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  28. #48
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    A fall off in numbers was inevitable given the spate of Barrack closures , reduction in units and posts.

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  30. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Those numbers (in isolation) are nothing worrying really when you think there are about 400 recruits and 30 cadets inducted annually.

    A big issue is promotions IMHO, which effects the income, morale, retention, etc.
    400 recruits may well have been inducted but 400 recruits didn't finish training... So using them as a means to say "It's all ok" is just papering over the cracks.

    It's a fact that people are leaving the organisation in droves and not because of "natural wastage" or any other buzz words... It's because for many people it's just not a job worth doing anymore. It's not worth the stress, increased workload, time away from home/family and certainly not worth the time spent dealing with utter bullshit. Young lads are passing out as fully trained soldiers and within about a year, will start entertaining the idea of leaving the organisation.

    The outlook is bleak for the next few years.

  31. #50
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    If you "listen" carefully to the PQ's etc the terms induction-enlisting are used which begs the question as to how many of these numbers are actually passing out-commissioning. Many are called few...etc.

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