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  • #61
    Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-02-15a.774

    The Minister for State has stated that the PDF strength at 31 December 2016 was 9,126 personnel, comprising 7,332 Army, 704 Air Corps and 1,090 Naval Service, whole time equivalent.

    subtract the 690 new entrants that were inducted in 2016 (590 General Service and 100 Cadets), who have just finished or in the majority of cases are still in training you are left with only 8,436 trained personnel. When you subtract the additional 60 cadets (all services) still in training and the 72 personnel on leave of absence, the real figure approaches
    8,300.

    Subtract the 500 personnel overseas at any one time and you can see why Reserve Recruit applications are left on a desk for several months. It also shows why people are leaving in droves due to burnout and why emergency transplant patient transfer flights cannot be manned
    Fixed that for you

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    • #62
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      According to annual reports

      Strength 31 Dec 11 was 9438
      Strength 31 Dec 12 was 9359

      633 having been inducted in 2012

      So if my maths are correct 712 left in 2012
      803 left in 2012

      Click image for larger version

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      Last edited by TangoSierra; 22 July 2017, 17:30.

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      • #63
        The real reason the DoD are happy to let the DF bleed personnel

        Permanent Defence Force: pay 30,556 Savings of €30.556 million arose due to higher than projected
        retirements and lower than projected recruitment in 2016, leading to
        lower than anticipated numbers of personnel serving in the PDF
        during the year. A supplementary estimate allocated savings of €23
        million from this subhead to subhead A.11 to facilitate payments for
        a fourth naval vessel under the Naval Vessel Replacement
        Programme.

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        • #64
          It isn't necessarily the DoD!

          I was in a room where either the COS or ACOS (can't remember which) was forthcoming in saying that is how the DF paid for it (and the other 3 vessels).

          But remember during that period, people were still being pass the same, recruitment was still happening
          Last edited by DeV; 1 October 2017, 03:28.

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          • #65
            I remember a Dail Written Answer stating that the DoD did not have a policy of paying for equipment using money saved from the pay subhead

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            • #66
              Even the press is catching on to the crisis. The budget will be an indication of whether the government intends to do anything about it beyond pouring cups of recruits and cadets into the bucket with the hole in the bottom.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                The real reason the DoD are happy to let the DF bleed personnel

                Permanent Defence Force: pay 30,556 Savings of €30.556 million arose due to higher than projected
                retirements and lower than projected recruitment in 2016, leading to
                lower than anticipated numbers of personnel serving in the PDF
                during the year. A supplementary estimate allocated savings of €23
                million from this subhead to subhead A.11 to facilitate payments for
                a fourth naval vessel under the Naval Vessel Replacement
                Programme.
                Can we expect to see flying machines and armoured vehicles being purchased by this gimmick in the future, then, depending on which arm replaces him?

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                • #68
                  There was a time when savings went back into central funds.. At least the DF is seeing the benefit now.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                  • #69
                    Vehicles and equipment can be bought almost instantly.

                    Recruiting, training and providing experiential learning to personnel to make them competent to operate vehicles and equipment takes years.

                    When you have such a high turnover in such a short time, it means that experience is lost without that being passed onto the upcoming personnel to build upon. You lose capability as the system cycles on a downward spiral below technical competence.

                    What happens when there are no more instructors left? The DF will have cadets and recruits being trained by cadets and recruits at this rate

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Sure as long as there are some hardy bucks to point some bayonets into the sky at Easter, thats all that really matters.
                      It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

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                      • #71
                        The process of buying vehicles, or anything else for that matter, is so long winded that you could easily generate a basically trained man. 16 weeks will do that. The DF cannot buy any capital item bigger than a loaf of bread without jumping thru hoops, Civil service style unless it's an item given urgent priority.

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                        • #72
                          You want to stop people leaving in droves, especially expensively trained techs? Shake up the Staff ranks to stop insisting that trained techs go abroad to act as rifle carriers; stop insisting that Air Corps techs do the same NCO's course as infantrymen, so that they waste 16 weeks of their lives instead of doing a proper tech NCOs course (the RAF stopped doing it in 1954, so the Don has a bit of catching up to do); stop dicking around with Naval personnel, who find themselves doing back to back rotations so that the 180 days at sea becomes a sick joke.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            The process of buying vehicles, or anything else for that matter, is so long winded that you could easily generate a basically trained man. 16 weeks will do that. The DF cannot buy any capital item bigger than a loaf of bread without jumping thru hoops, Civil service style unless it's an item given urgent priority.
                            Basically trained does not equal technical competence. Support weapons, vehicle driving, exercises to provide experiential learning opportunities etc etc take years.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Your point was that vehicles can be bought almost instantly, which is really not the case. The only way the DF would take on any vehicle, from a bicycle to a recovery vehicle, at any kind of short notice, would be if there was a critical national or overseas emergency and they had to commandeer or otherwise take up into service as an Urgent Operational Requirement (UOR-a term familiar to UK servicemen), ie, we want it now, as in right now, not next year or the year after. I don't know if it's still the case but some Officers had the power to spend several thousands to buy instantly required kit, without going thru channels but they had to be able to justify it later. As for training techs or skilled men, the DF seems stuck on the formula that 16 weeks is what it takes to learn to do anything smarter than tying shoelaces, which takes 16-week sized chunks out of the available manpower. The DF moans about lack of available vehicles/helicopters/ships but they keep shooting themselves in the foot by taking away the very people who are doing the job to do unrelated things. A vehicle tech going on a UN tour to keep Mowags rolling is doing his job; a helicopter tech or an ERA going on a UN tour because he has been told that he will never get promoted unless he does a tour and then finds himself spending six months holding a rifle or stacking a shelf is not doing his job, by being unavailable for seven months and the end result is that the vehicle/aircraft/ship spends longer up on a ramp/up on jacks/tied alongside than it should. The long term effect is that serviceability and availability fall to pieces (in this day and age, the basic standard is greater than 90%...I suspect the DF's is considerably less), the DF Staff form the opinion that their own techs are useless, which is not the case and ultimately, maintenance gets farmed out to civvies and the DF gets tied into expensive service contracts. It's the same for other grades and trades; why do you think AC pilots leave? Because they have to do ground tours and they end up bored to tears doing anything but flying and they jack it in. Other air arms have what is called the Professional Aircrew Spine or stream, where pilots are pilots first and foremost and are not sent off counting boots or rifles; they serve to fly and that's what they do...Why was the Navy losing ships Captains? because promotion to ships command was so slow, they literally had to wait until a man died before getting his seat. The DF doesn't help itself, sometimes.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                                https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-02-15a.774

                                The Minister for State has stated that the DF strength at 31 December 2016 was 9,126 personnel, comprising 7,332 Army, 704 Air Corps and 1,090 Naval Service, whole time equivalent.

                                subtract the 690 new entrants that were inducted in 2016 (590 General Service and 100 Cadets), who have just finished or in the majority of cases are still in training you are left with only 8,436 trained personnel. When you subtract the additional 60 cadets (all services) still in training and the 72 personnel on leave of absence, the real figure approaches
                                8,300.

                                Subtract the 500 personnel overseas at any one time and you can see why Reserve Recruit applications are left on a desk for several months. It also shows why people are leaving in droves due to burnout and why emergency transplant patient transfer flights cannot be manned
                                Personnel numbers still in a downward spiral

                                Comment

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