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View Poll Results: Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Multiple Choice)

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  • McKee Bks - Dublin

    5 9.80%
  • Cathal Brugha Bks - Dublin

    7 13.73%
  • St Bricins Hospital - Dublin

    29 56.86%
  • Casement Aerodrome - Dublin

    4 7.84%
  • Aiken Bks - Dundalk, Louth

    0 0%
  • Gormanston Aerodrome - Meath

    7 13.73%
  • Custume Bks - Athlone, Westmeath

    3 5.88%
  • Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa - Galway

    3 5.88%
  • Finner Camp - Donegal

    1 1.96%
  • Ballymullen Bks - Tralee

    23 45.10%
  • Stephens Bks - Kilkenny

    16 31.37%
  • Curragh Camp - Kildare

    0 0%
  • Collins Bks - Cork

    4 7.84%
  • Haulbowline - Cork

    3 5.88%
  • Sarsfield Bks - Limerick

    3 5.88%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #1
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    Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Part 2)

    Original Thread here

    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...uld-Close-Next

    "There is a need to close barracks. many of the barracks currenlty occupied exist NOT for operational reasons but for historical and/or outmoded territorial occupation reasons. The cost of upkeep has reached unacceptable levels and will only increase over time.

    This issue requires in-depth study in its own right.

    (The Study) will need to be aligned with the re-organisation proposals and man power plan. Each facility will have to be looked at in terms of necessity in the new structures, its manning levels, its market value and the potential to redeploy the personnel involved elsewhere which will also mean looking at redeployment costs in the receiving facility.

    The study needs to be undertaken as a matter of urgency and any further significant investment in the current infrastructure should await the outcome of that study.

    Review of the DF - PWC Report - July 1994
    Building on recent re-organisation measures for the Permanent Defence Force (PDF) and the Reserve Defence Force (RDF), to guide and underpin decisions relating to the capacity of the Defence Organisation to include: corporate skills, organisation, force composition and equipment acquisition over the next ten years;

    6.7 Development and Maintenance of Infrastructure
    In the context of maintaining and developing military capability, the term infrastructure refers to all buildings and permanent installations including, but not limited to barracks, the airfield, naval base, training lands, medical facilities, stores, ranges, maintenance workshops, etc., necessary for the support of the Defence Forces.

    There is a requirement to carry out major building refurbishment in a number of areas including Haulbowline, Casement Aerodrome, McKee Barracks and the Curragh Camp. The cost of this programme of essential capital projects cannot be met from existing funding.

    there is a need to develop within the Department of Defence, a coordinated infrastructure development plan. This development plan will reflect on a priority needs basis, an approach for all infrastructure development requirements for the life time of this White Paper. The first step in the completion of such a plan will be an assessment of the main barracks and facilities across a number of criteria

    White Paper on Defence - 2015



    Given that many of the Barracks listed in the original thread's poll are now closed. I'd like to start a new poll (to include ALL DF Property) to reflect the statements from the White Paper 2015 and the PWC report which stated the same over 20 years prior.

    As well as the poll, I'd like this thread to become an outline version of the study the PWC Report and the White paper calls for.

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  3. #2
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    The current total list of Defence Forces Properties can be found here:

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/...orces+property

    Tuesday, 29 November 2016

    Department of Defence - Defence Forces Properties

    Written Answers on 29 Nov 2016


    John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
    802. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the number of premises owned and or managed by his Department in each county; and the number of these currently unoccupied. [37423/16]

    Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
    The information requested by the Deputy is set out in the following table:
    Premises Occupied Unoccupied

    Knockalisheen Partly Occupied
    RDF Premises Ennis Yes

    Kilworth Camp Yes
    Bere Island Yes
    Naval Base, Haulbowline Yes
    Fort Davis, Whitegate Yes
    Fort Templebreedy, Crosshaven Yes
    Collins Barracks Cork Yes
    Showgrounds Fermoy Yes
    RDF Kilcrohane Yes
    RDF Skibereen Yes
    RDF Mallow Yes
    Finner Camp Yes

    Cathal Brugha Barracks, Rathmines Yes
    Cathal Brugha Barracks , Former Married Quarters – 12 units 9 occupied 3 unoccupied
    McKee Barracks, Blackhorse Avenue Yes
    No 64 McKee Park , Blackhorse Avenue Yes
    St. Bricin's Hospital, Dublin 7 Yes
    Old School House, Arbour Hill Yes
    2 Tomar Court, Arbour Hill Yes
    Casement Aerodrome , Baldonnel Yes
    Esplanade Collins Barracks Yes

    Oranmore Rifle Range Yes
    Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa Yes

    Ballymullen Barracks Tralee Yes
    Fort Shannon, Tarbert Yes
    RDF Premises Kilorglin Yes

    Curragh Camp yes
    2 Orchard Park Yes
    23 Orchard P ark Yes
    78 Orchard Park Yes
    85 Orchard P ark yes
    96 Orchard P ark yes

    Stephen's Barracks Kilkenny Yes

    RDF Portlaoise Yes

    Connolly Barracks, Longford Yes

    Aiken Barracks, Dundalk Yes
    Red Barn Rifle Range, Dundalk Yes

    Military Barracks Castlebar Yes

    Gormanston Camp and Aerodrome yes
    RDF Navan yes


    Military Barracks, Boyle Yes


    Military Barracks Nenagh yes
    Park of McCann Barracks, Templemore yes

    Military Barracks Waterford yes

    Columb Barracks, Mullingar Partly occuppied
    Custume Barracks, Athlone Yes

    Military Barracks Wexford yes

    Kilbride Camp and Rifle Range Yes
    Coolmoney Camp Yes
    Rockbrae House Bray Yes
    Range Warden's Post, Seskin Yes
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 4th December 2016 at 15:01.

  4. #3
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    One glaring omission
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    One glaring omission
    Untouchable
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    One glaring omission
    Ah yes, Sarsfield Barracks. How could I forget Willies home town!? Any MODs able to edit the poll please?

    Interestingly enough it's omitted in Paul Keogh's answer too
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 4th December 2016 at 19:28.

  7. #6
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Ah yes, Sarsfield Barracks. How could I forget Willies home town!? Any MODs able to edit the poll please?

    Interestingly enough it's omitted in Paul Keogh's answer too
    As requested

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  9. #7
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    St Brickins is an early poll leader. Given that the adjacent social housing blocks are being demolished and the site marked for housing development, would this be the ideal time to sell the site in order to gain maximum return?

  10. #8
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    The other poll leader is Stephens Barracks, Kilkenny. Given that it is adjacent to Paul Keogh's backyard and is probably one of the major employers in the town how would you make the case for closure of the barracks?

    Would the state get anything for the sale of the site?

  11. #9
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    There's **** all jobs in kk, if you close the barracks the place will be a ghost town. Who'd buy the houses they build on the site?
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  12. #10
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    The simple facts are that Bricins and Ballymullen are isolated posts with no significant military significance anymore. Bricins as a "hospital" is a mis-nomer in any sense.

    Moving units from Ballymullen to Galway, Limerick or Cork would make sense, similarly Bricins moving to Curragh.

    Stephens could move to Curragh with minimal disruption to units and re-unite the battalion also.
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  13. #11
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    Stephens could move to Curragh with minimal disruption to units and re-unite the battalion also.
    The PDF elements of 3 Inf Bn is currently centralised in Kilkenny

    B Coy 3 Inf Bn that was in the DFTC (ie the APC Coy) is now 1 Mech Inf Coy

  14. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    There's **** all jobs in kk, if you close the barracks the place will be a ghost town. Who'd buy the houses they build on the site?
    Is the mission of the Defence Forces to sustain jobs in kilkenny? What operational need is there for the DF in Kilkenny?

    Stephens Barracks to the Curragh camp is under 80km or approx 1hr.

    Curragh Camp to Rosslare Harbour is under 135km or just over 1.5hrs.

    Even if the Defence Forces could not sell the site, it would still save significant sums in bit money and man years associated with facility services and maintenance

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  16. #13
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    Stephens could move to Curragh with minimal disruption to units and re-unite the battalion also.
    You'd face some protest from the folks already commuting to Kilkenny from Clonmel after the barracks closed there. B Coy still exists, it was reunited with the rest of the Battalion when 1 Mech Coy was re designated in the last re org!!
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  17. #14
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    You'd face some protest from the folks already commuting to Kilkenny from Clonmel after the barracks closed there. B Coy still exists, it was reunited with the rest of the Battalion when 1 Mech Coy was re designated in the last re org!!
    There are people commuting all over the place.

    I know of a someone living in Cork and based in the DFTC

    The thing is that the next batch of closures has to be the last (to allow people get stability)

  18. #15
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    As I see it currently the only real options for further closures of PDF locations are Bricins and Stephens.

  19. #16
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    In an ideal situation, the government would look at buying two or three large areas of land that are well serviced by motorways, and have varied terrain, and build bases. One per brigade, keep the DFTC and move the lot to central locations. IIRC, there's a piece of EU legislation dealing with having military outposts in urban centers, so in the medium term, we may be forced towards this anyway.

    With the way that property prices are going, Bricins and the Brugha would be valuable locations for property development and Baldonnel would be in high demand as a second commercial airport for Dublin. Also the savings on logistics etc would be massive over a few years, and consolidating units to larger new locations would mean better and more modern facilities that are fit for purpose, it must cost the DF a fortune maintaining and upgrading buildings that are mostly from the 1800's.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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  21. #17
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    It would but that would probably require a cash injection approaching €500 million

  22. #18
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    Selling CBB and Baldonnel would probably meet most of that cost.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  23. #19
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    McKee - only really a HQ location but no doubt there is largely unused accommodation there that is useful for GoHs, major events/ops, etc.
    CBB - too big to close would require an unaffordable green field site, duties, GoHs, etc
    Bricins - close it and move the facilities that are actually required to DFTC
    Casement - only AC base, standalone site is good for security. Proximity to Weston could stop Civvy use
    Aiken - close to the border and could be a bad idea to close it in the short to medium term (especially due to BREXIT)
    Gormanston - relatively close to the border, good low level training area, room for expansion, self sufficient with ranges, AC & AD range area
    Custume - expensive green field replacement required
    Dun Ui Mhaoiliosa - ATCA ops?
    Finner - close to the border, training areas, ranges
    Stephens - ATCP/ATCA ops?
    Curragh - expensive green field replacement required, close to Dublin, close to Glen, training areas, ranges
    Collins - 2nd city, ATCP/ATCA ops
    Haulbowline - only NS base, potential room for expansion?
    Sarsfield - 3rd city, Shannon, ATCP/ATCA ops

  24. #20
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    Selling CBB and Baldonnel would probably meet most of that cost.
    Yes but you have to have the money to buy and build the new site first (would take at least 5 years IMHO)

    Also how much of any site will have to go for social housing

  25. #21
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    Cathal Brugha Barracks - Points for Closure / Retention

    Case 1 - Cathal Brugha Barracks.

    Current Site size is 42.41 acres

    Only 3 recorded protected structures (Church, Michael Collins House and Gates).

    SALE PRICE

    In 2004, Clancy Barracks (13.65 acres) was sold for €25.4 Million. (€29.25 Million in 2016 money)
    in 2003, Murphy Barracks, Ballincollig, Cork (97 acres) was sold for €42 million (approx €50 million in 2016 money)

    Recently in 2016 near CBB:
    Portobello House (0.21 acres) was sold for €10 Million.
    2 Grand Canal (Nationwide BS HQ) (1.7 acres) was sold for €35 Million.

    If you sold Cathal Brugha Barracks at Clancy Barracks price per acre (€2.14 million pa) = €90.878 Million

    If you sold CBB at an average of Clancy and 2 Grand Canal prices = €482 Million

    Development costs associated with the Clancy Barracks site was €285 Million (Bought for €80 Million after company went into receivership)


    Development Potential

    Clancy Bks yielded 420 Apts on 13.65 acres

    Cathal Brugha could potentially yield 1,305 Apts on 42.41 acres.

    At an average build cost of €250,000 per apt, this results in an Apt Build cost of €326.23 Million.

    However,

    Development cost per acre at Clancy was €19.65 Million per acre.

    Applied to CBB, development cost would be €833.56 Million.


    Therefore, to make it attractive for sale, the guide price would be around the Clancy Price per acre, i.e €90.878 Million



    What to do with this!

    A 4,500 sqm Warehouse/Vehicle Storage unit including 11,000 sqm concrete yard and associated site works costs €6 Million euro.
    To put this in perspective, the current vehicle storage in 1 MIC is 2,100 sqm. This Warehouse/yard would house all existing DF Armour and some softskin transport as well as have space for stores/parts.

    A 450 room student accommodation hotel/apt including a 25m swimming pool costs €36 Million.

    There are several areas in DFTC that could take both facilities and then some. One suitable site would yield 20,000 Sqm. The other would yield 37,000 sqm.

    If the old red brick accomodation blocks/storage buildings were leveled this could happen in under one year. Also these buildings are unlisted.


    And oh, ya, you would still have €45 Million left over
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 5th December 2016 at 14:09.

  26. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    McKee - only really a HQ location but no doubt there is largely unused accommodation there that is useful for GoHs, major events/ops, etc. Viable
    CBB - too big to close would require an unaffordable green field site, duties, GoHs, etc - Not factual
    Bricins - close it and move the facilities that are actually required to DFTC - Viable
    Casement - only AC base, standalone site is good for security. Proximity to Weston could stop Civvy use Viable
    Aiken - close to the border and could be a bad idea to close it in the short to medium term (especially due to BREXIT) Viable
    Gormanston - relatively close to the border, good low level training area, room for expansion, self sufficient with ranges, AC & AD range area Viable
    Custume - expensive green field replacement required Not factual - Difficulty is political not physical
    Dun Ui Mhaoiliosa - ATCA ops? (Throw down between Limerick and Galway)
    Finner - close to the border, training areas, ranges Viable
    Stephens - ATCP/ATCA ops? Not factual - Difficulty is political not physical
    Curragh - expensive green field replacement required, close to Dublin, close to Glen, training areas, ranges Viable
    Collins - 2nd city, ATCP/ATCA ops Not factual - Difficulty is political not physical
    Haulbowline - only NS base, potential room for expansion? Viable
    Sarsfield - 3rd city, Shannon, ATCP/ATCA ops (Throw down between Limerick and Galway)
    ...

  27. #23
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Case 1 - Cathal Brugha Barracks.

    Current Site size is 42.41 acres

    Only 3 recorded protected structures (Church, Michael Collins House and Gates).

    SALE PRICE

    In 2004, Clancy Barracks (13.65 acres) was sold for €25.4 Million. (€29.25 Million in 2016 money)
    in 2003, Murphy Barracks, Ballincollig, Cork (97 acres) was sold for €42 million (approx €50 million in 2016 money)

    Recently in 2016 near CBB:
    Portobello House (0.21 acres) was sold for €10 Million.
    2 Grand Canal (Nationwide BS HQ) (1.7 acres) was sold for €35 Million.

    If you sold Cathal Brugha Barracks at Clancy Barracks price per acre (€2.14 million pa) = €90.878 Million

    If you sold CBB at an average of Clancy and 2 Grand Canal prices = €482 Million

    Development costs associated with the Clancy Barracks site was €285 Million (Bought for €80 Million after company went into receivership)


    Development Potential

    Clancy Bks yielded 420 Apts on 13.65 acres

    Cathal Brugha could potentially yield 1,305 Apts on 42.41 acres.

    At an average build cost of €250,000 per apt, this results in an Apt Build cost of €326.23 Million.

    However,

    Development cost per acre at Clancy was €19.65 Million per acre.

    Applied to CBB, development cost would be €833.56 Million.


    Therefore, to make it attractive for sale, the guide price would be around the Clancy Price per acre, i.e €90.878 Million



    What to do with this!

    A 4,500 sqm Warehouse/Vehicle Storage unit including 11,000 sqm concrete yard and associated site works costs €6 Million euro.
    To put this in perspective, the current vehicle storage in 1 MIC is 2,100 sqm. This Warehouse/yard would house all existing DF Armour and some softskin transport as well as have space for stores/parts.

    A 450 room student accommodation hotel/apt including a 25m swimming pool costs €36 Million.

    There are several areas in DFTC that could take both facilities and then some. One suitable site would yield 20,000 Sqm. The other would yield 37,000 sqm.

    If the old red brick accomodation blocks/storage buildings were leveled this could happen in under one year. Also these buildings are unlisted.


    And oh, ya, you would still have €45 Million left over
    Yes €45 million left over to build/extend/refurbish accommodation, dining halls, stores, workshops, offices, lecture rooms, classrooms, archives, gyms, squares, etc etc etc for the over 1000 PDF personnel based in CBB.

    The Curragh is big but you will be eating into the exercise lands. To put it in proportion there are currently around 1400 based in the DFTC and 1000 in Custume.

    Also that money will be looked for the reequipment programmes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    ...
    What do you mean by viable? Retain ?

    To a degree there are physical constraints. Probably the most strategically important site in the State is Shannon Airport.

    Where there is limited time or mobility (be it transport, infrastructure or weather), time could be of the essence. There is economic and political realities yes but there is also military realities.
    Last edited by DeV; 5th December 2016 at 16:18.

  28. #24
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    With all the talk of property values, sales etc, you are all missing the Loxodonta africana in the covered space.

    Kildare.
    A perfectly good barracks a short distance from the Curragh, that closed in 1998, and remains unoccupied and unused, only sold in February for €8.2m for development.
    Ballincollig was also a bargain to the developers, though its development didn't take as long.
    Clancy rotted away for many a year until eventually developed.
    The Old AD HQ in Cobh is also an empty large site, with possibly the best view of Cork Harbour. All buildings on it were demolished.

    I'd be reluctant to leave any facility, without a contract of sale signed. Otherwise the DoD have to foot the considerable bill for security. By the time Kildare was sold, it'd buildings were in ruins, as a result of 18 years of anti-social behaviour.
    The proximity to some of the suggestions above to the less attractive parts of their respective locations to me would see them with a similar future.
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  30. #25
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    You miss the point Dev. The money being spent now on existing infrastructure would be re assigned to develop the Curragh. The €45 million left could form a fund for equipment (or 1/2 of a ship). There are many many examples of modern military barracks facilitating over 4000 troops including vehicles and equipment in less space than the area surrounded by trees of the Curragh Camp.

    There will be no "eating into exercise lands". Potential sites for vehicle storage of the entire DF inventory, administration buildings for a Bde+ and accommodation for over 2000 troops can all occur within the 1/2 the existing foot print of the West Curragh camp alone.

    Time is an important factor. But you seem to think or suggest that the DF could deploy a Bn within 30min. it cant.

    Show specific examples backed by evidence/facts in your posts. Otherwise your points are nothing more than the equivalent of "But we've always done it like this" or "You cant do that! - Why? - " You just cant ok!"

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