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View Poll Results: Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Multiple Choice)

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46. You may not vote on this poll
  • McKee Bks - Dublin

    4 8.70%
  • Cathal Brugha Bks - Dublin

    6 13.04%
  • St Bricins Hospital - Dublin

    28 60.87%
  • Casement Aerodrome - Dublin

    3 6.52%
  • Aiken Bks - Dundalk, Louth

    0 0%
  • Gormanston Aerodrome - Meath

    6 13.04%
  • Custume Bks - Athlone, Westmeath

    3 6.52%
  • Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa - Galway

    2 4.35%
  • Finner Camp - Donegal

    1 2.17%
  • Ballymullen Bks - Tralee

    22 47.83%
  • Stephens Bks - Kilkenny

    16 34.78%
  • Curragh Camp - Kildare

    0 0%
  • Collins Bks - Cork

    4 8.70%
  • Haulbowline - Cork

    3 6.52%
  • Sarsfield Bks - Limerick

    3 6.52%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #201
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    my understanding is that since the Brits outsourced their property management to a private company, that the results have not all been positive
    In the British Army, you pay according to what you ask for (or whats available)...

    The housing stock is 'banded' into types and priced accordingly...taking into account location, age of dwelling and other stuff.

    Many new houses have been built but you pay more for them.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...on-Charges.pdf

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/defence-...-accommodation

    Its subsidised housing; a soldier will pay a lot less to rent army accommodation in the south of England than he would on the civilian market.

    Where I am at the moment (reasonably remote former RAF station 1950's style houses) they don't pay a lot at all.

    So in theory you could choose to apply for cheap housing there...and commute to work up to (I believe) 50 miles away.

    Where its gone slightly wrong is with the maintenance contract (Carillion Amey)...they're not great sometimes but in fairness its not too bad.

    There is also a scheme called 'Help to Buy' whereby soldiers can borrow up to about 10k to put towards buying a house...interest free...problem being when they throw the head up and decide to sign off they have to pay the outstanding balance back.

    Affordable housing is all part of 'the offer'...the overall package that attracts people and keeps them in.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  3. #202
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Carillon Abbey’s parent company is in liquidation (it has effected the building of a number of schools here under PPP).

    A few points about DF Accomodiation:
    - how soon after a new build outside barracks before they would be forced to hand them over to civilians for social housing
    - the overholders is a mess
    - what about the person when they leave the DF, they will end up homeless

    That is not to say I’m against SLI/MLI

  4. #203
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    That is where the legal end must be sorted.
    The UKMOD has historically been good in this regard, providing homes for retired soldiers since the Crimean war.
    Knowing that on departure from your employment you must find new accomodation is something not unusual to those working in the private sector.
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  5. #204
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Knowing that on departure from your employment you must find new accomodation is something not unusual to those working in the private sector.
    Absolutely but we are talking about indoctrinated people here, people that don’t generally earn enough that they will be able to afford a deposit, may not get a mortgage, will then not be used to paying market rents etc
    Last edited by DeV; 3rd April 2018 at 10:18.

  6. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    That is where the legal end must be sorted.
    The UKMOD has historically been good in this regard, providing homes for retired soldiers since the Crimean war.
    Knowing that on departure from your employment you must find new accomodation is something not unusual to those working in the private sector.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Absolutely but we are talking about indoctrinated people here, people that don’t generally earn enough that they will be able to afford a deposit, may not get a mortgage, will then not be used to paying market rents etc
    How did you manage to quote murph saying something I posted?

    I suggest that DF housing should be an option rather than a feature of military service. OPW still provide temporary housing for members of an Garda Siochana. It is a model that has worked very well in recent years. Gives the member a decent home while they are sorting out alternative permanent accomodation. Most houses are co-located on rural garda stations.
    Last edited by na grohmití; 3rd April 2018 at 01:35.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  8. #206
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    I am aware of a relative of a friend that was killed in Afghan as a British soldier. Not only did his family have to deal with his loss but they also had to move out of their house after 3 or 6 months.

    Married qharters does bring other challenges that we would just fudge and end up with over holders again. We got them the first time around by people not having the moral courage to make the tough decisions

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  10. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    How did you manage to quote murph saying something I posted?

    I suggest that DF housing should be an option rather than a feature of military service. OPW still provide temporary housing for members of an Garda Siochana. It is a model that has worked very well in recent years. Gives the member a decent home while they are sorting out alternative permanent accomodation. Most houses are co-located on rural garda stations.
    Defence and it's requirements has to be properly catered for with strengths and tasks at each location being met by adjacent units. Modernised forces required separation and segregation of accommodation and in most cases married quarters were adapted and cannabilised to meet immediate needs caused by new practices.Here is where the General Staff and the Minister need to face reality that the PDF is not an organisation where employees can provide or relocate accommodation without major assistance. My son when in the BA had wonderful housing, when tasked to Public Ceremonial duties, it was a 3 month task, family remained in quarters and school, and unit housed in London barracks in designed quarters for all ranks. Every other move was also to provided family quarters and schools when overseas in Germany or Cyprus.

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  12. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    How did you manage to quote murph saying something I posted?

    I suggest that DF housing should be an option rather than a feature of military service. OPW still provide temporary housing for members of an Garda Siochana. It is a model that has worked very well in recent years. Gives the member a decent home while they are sorting out alternative permanent accomodation. Most houses are co-located on rural garda stations.
    Good question - think I was originally going to multi quote - fixed

    But the difference is we aren’t talking a very small number of houses in a rural town/village, we are talking possibly hundreds in (in most cases) major urban areas

  13. #209
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    There is quite a large quantity of "garda houses", many exist in towns where there isn't even a garda station.
    The operation for DF families could be the same.
    In reality how many of the 9000 members of the DF would require such housing, compared to the 13000 members of AGS?
    The other option of course is the payment of a rent allowance.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    I am aware of a relative of a friend that was killed in Afghan as a British soldier. Not only did his family have to deal with his loss but they also had to move out of their house after 3 or 6 months.

    Married qharters does bring other challenges that we would just fudge and end up with over holders again. We got them the first time around by people not having the moral courage to make the tough decisions
    It would have been 93 days, 3 calendar months, or in exceptional circumstances they would have had an extension granted by the unit to which he was attached.

    When they signed for the house they would have known that.

    Same deal if a marriage breaks up etc etc.

    What you haven't mentioned in the case of the serviceman killed in Afghanistan is the financial and welfare support they would have received in the aftermath of their loved ones death. The British Army is huge on welfare; indeed the British public are huge on service welfare provision by supporting the plethora of charities which exist to help people at a time like that which you have just described.

    Again part of 'the offer'...a soldier goes to war knowing that if the worst happens his loved ones will be taken care of.

    Realising that the situation in Ireland is slightly different (not the same amount of moving around of families) I'd go with NG's rent allowance suggestion...it would either pay the rent or make a big dent in a mortgage. Allow the soldier to invest in a home whilst he invests his time and service in a career that pays for his family to enjoy a decent standard of living.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  17. #211
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    The other option of course is the payment of a rent allowance.
    Looked for recently by PDFORRA as an equitable measure as the GS and PO's got that back in exchange for signing up to LRA2.

    Shot down by DPER as "Cost increasing".
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  19. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2018-03-20a.16&s="Defence+forces+strength"+section%3Awrans



    MSA does not cover or dent the cost of living in a city that is now more expensive then London

    Also, a Sgt on €40,000 pa gross (incl MSA) even if coupled with a spouse/partner on a similar pay scale can now not afford the average house price that exists in all of counties Dublin and Wicklow. The maximum 3.5x mortgage level also means that Meath and Kildare will be out of reach in the next 2-3 years if house prices keep going the way their going.

    Not to mention the fact that rent prices are now over €500pm more than the monthly mortgage repayments.
    Having lived in London for years and Dublin now, the simple truth is that the cost of living in London is far higher and wages are far lower in the u.k.

    40k is in my book quite a good salary for a junior manager.

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  21. #213
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    40k is for a Sgt which would in the current system take upwards of 8 years to achieve. 40k will go someway to being able to afford housing in Galway, limerick, cork, Kilkenny, Donegal, dundalk and south of Kildare but is almost completely inadequate for housing in Dublin and all other neighbouring counties. Not to mention one of the largest barracks in the country is also in the most expensive place in the country

  22. #214
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    40k for first point on the scale including MSA for a Sgt I would say is a reasonable ok salary (depending on what your doing and the situation in your station etc)....... issue is that isn’t what said Sgt is on!

    The figures are incorrect

  23. #215
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    An infantry NCO that is getting promoted to Sgt in 2018 will on average have 12 - 15 years service, will invariably be married / as good as and have kids. 40k is a crap wage for the back bone of the organisation to be on when you look at the responsibilities that come with the promotion for a fiver a week and the fact that for many they end up scattered to the wind

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  25. #216
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    You won't get any argument from me on that point.

  26. #217
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    For comparison, €40k is the rate of pay for the most junior grade of civil servant supervisor, who would have served in excess of just 8 years.
    So the Sgt in the brugha, responsible for the supervision of about 30 soldiers, with 15 years plus in uniform, is earning the same as the EO in the CSO next door, who will probably have responsibility for no more than 3 or 4 staff.
    Meanwhile, up the road in Rathgar road, the Garda Sgt, responsible for a particular unit of no more than 10 uniformed members is earning between €49k to €57k, plus allowances.
    It's a whole other debate, but it shows the difficulties members of the DF are facing, just trying to live near the place of work the state has decided they will serve within.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  28. #218
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    As far as I can see, a pre 2011 contract Sgt on first point of scale is € 624.37 pw plus € 122.87 MSA

    That’s € 38,856.48 gross (3% less than what the Minister says it is)

    http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/Su...56C7E00421C7E?

  29. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    As far as I can see, a pre 2011 contract Sgt on first point of scale is € 624.37 pw plus € 122.87 MSA

    That’s € 38,856.48 gross (3% less than what the Minister says it is)

    http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/Su...56C7E00421C7E?
    It's possible his figure is bulked up by adding in the aggregate allowances usually received by a Sgt on an annual basis. Fluffing up the figures.

  30. #220
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    To go up €1200 a year on duty allowances, a person has to do about 30 duties a year. Add to that time spent on courses, exercises, other time away from home, you would be better off working in McDonalds with a nixer as a taxi driver

  31. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    40k is for a Sgt which would in the current system take upwards of 8 years to achieve. 40k will go someway to being able to afford housing in Galway, limerick, cork, Kilkenny, Donegal, dundalk and south of Kildare but is almost completely inadequate for housing in Dublin and all other neighbouring counties. Not to mention one of the largest barracks in the country is also in the most expensive place in the country
    https://m.independent.ie/business/pe...-36799198.html

    Combined income of €92,000 now too low to afford mortgages for housing in Dublin, Cork and Galway

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  33. #222
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    yes the tiger is here again but quietly this time, the pain for many is tremendous. Even if you stuck everyone in the DFTC Kildare and Newbridge will be out of reach
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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