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View Poll Results: Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Multiple Choice)

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  • McKee Bks - Dublin

    4 8.70%
  • Cathal Brugha Bks - Dublin

    6 13.04%
  • St Bricins Hospital - Dublin

    28 60.87%
  • Casement Aerodrome - Dublin

    3 6.52%
  • Aiken Bks - Dundalk, Louth

    0 0%
  • Gormanston Aerodrome - Meath

    6 13.04%
  • Custume Bks - Athlone, Westmeath

    3 6.52%
  • Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa - Galway

    2 4.35%
  • Finner Camp - Donegal

    1 2.17%
  • Ballymullen Bks - Tralee

    22 47.83%
  • Stephens Bks - Kilkenny

    16 34.78%
  • Curragh Camp - Kildare

    0 0%
  • Collins Bks - Cork

    4 8.70%
  • Haulbowline - Cork

    3 6.52%
  • Sarsfield Bks - Limerick

    3 6.52%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #126
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack08 View Post
    If the CBB was sold off, the DF would get nothing out it. Other than another Bks closed. as for troops doin duties in the CBB, are troops being transported to Dublin to do Guard in CBB?
    Troops are being pulled from pillar to post all over
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  3. #127
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    Irish construction costs for office/industrial building to owner occupier fit out standard range from €1000 (Ind) to €3000 (com) per sqm

    https://www.linesight.com/knowledge/...ion-costs-2016

    High end space requirements for tech companies like Google are 25sqm per employee

    If all 1,500 employees were given that much space each it would come to 37,500sqm (which is way way way over requirement)

    Cost would be circa €115million for Google/Facebook standard building (which we can all agree will never be required)

    Divide by 4 floors = 9,375sqm footprint = just under 100m X 100m building LxW

    The equitation schools' horse track in McKee alone would give you over 3 times the area.

    McKee has just under 200 car spaces in the main car park (googlemaps)
    Cost of a 3 storey 600 car park would be additional 12million

    So for roughly the cost of one ship, you would create better working conditions, efficiency, save money, break down silos and enable greater collaboration for 1,500 personnel.

    Also bear in mind that you would be saving 3-5million euro a year with the closure of Cathal Brugha.

    130million ÷ 3 = 43 year payback period based on savings alone. Through some capital investment money at it and it's less.

    So when you say that
    There is not a chance of being able to accommodate all the units from the Brugha into McKee
    I'd be really interested to see your rebuttal facts and figures. #facts not #fiction
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 12th March 2018 at 00:16.

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  5. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack08 View Post
    where are you getting 160,000 man hours from.
    From basic maths

  6. #129
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    Just thinking - yes, by relocating the Equestrian School fully to DFTC (currently detachment in DFTC), you would free up space in McKee.
    But how much of it would be useful?
    Are all those structures up that end listed also - which would seriously impede developing the area into additional accomm/office/parking etc?
    Also, extensive investment would have to be done in DFTC to replace the equestrian facilities lost from McKee, in such a scenario (yep, I know the argument about "why do we need the Eq School at all, etc)
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  8. #130
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    you could ask, why we need a Bk Guard in Mckee

  9. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Just thinking - yes, by relocating the Equestrian School fully to DFTC (currently detachment in DFTC), you would free up space in McKee.
    But how much of it would be useful?
    Are all those structures up that end listed also - which would seriously impede developing the area into additional accomm/office/parking etc?
    Also, extensive investment would have to be done in DFTC to replace the equestrian facilities lost from McKee, in such a scenario (yep, I know the argument about "why do we need the Eq School at all, etc)
    The equestrian school is made up of stables, offices, storages and a field. Hardly break the bank stuff.

    In relation to protected structures in the DF

    . Written answers
    Tuesday, 25 March 2014
    Department of Defence
    Defence Forces Properties
    Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
    Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

    135. To ask the Minister for Defence in view of the fact that the surveying, listing and ongoing monitoring of protected buildings in the Defence property portfolio falls within the remit of the local authority, the number of meetings and level of engagement that took place between the Defence Forces property section and Kildare County Council in relation to these matters over the past five years. [12969/14]

    Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
    Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

    137. To ask the Minister for Defence the number of conservation architects and building surveyors employed by the Defence Forces property section; the person responsible for deciding when a building should be demolished; and the expertise that is relied on to support that decision, particularly in relation to protected buildings. [12933/14]

    Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)
    Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

    I propose to take Questions Nos. 135 and 137 together.

    A small number of military buildings are included on the Record of Protected Structures of Kildare County Council. As there have been no plans to carry out material alterations to any of these protected structures my Department has not had the requirement to meet with the local authority in relation to these buildings within the last five years. I can confirm that as part of the ongoing process of managing the Defence property portfolio my Department monitors the Record of Protected Structures on an ongoing basis.

    At present Conservation Architects are employed by my Department in relation to two projects, namely the restoration of the North Accommodation Block in McKee Barracks which is a protected structure, and the construction of a Military Archives Facility in Cathal Brugha Barracks. In most instances where external design teams are employed by my Department, the teams consists of an Architect (conservation qualified as necessary), a Structural Engineer, a Services Engineer and a Quantity Surveyor.

    When it is proposed to demolish a building in a Defence Forces installation an application is submitted to my Department by the military authorities – each application is considered on its merits following consultation between officials in my Department and the Defence Forces Corps of Engineers before a final decision is made. To date no protected structures have been demolished by my Department or the Defence Forces.
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 12th March 2018 at 00:28.

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  11. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack08 View Post
    you could ask, why we need a Bk Guard in Mckee
    Location, location, location

    Very close to national rail infrastructure (2 main stations, and luas line)

    Right next door to Garda HQ

    Critical infrastructure already onsite

    Much easier and better access to M50 (meaning easier commuting from Athlone, Dundalk, Galway, Cork, DFTC)

    Closer to Dublin airport

    Equidistant from Baldonnel

    Has extensive training grounds on its door step

    City central

    Only 16min from Govt buildings (8min from CBB)
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 12th March 2018 at 00:39.

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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    Because the strength at the time of the ECF was 10,000 all ranks. The ECF was a mechanism by DPER to get a grip on public sector employment. The DF had a rigid structure so it wasn't an issue for us, other public sector bodies were not so lucky. It did allow us to get past the moratorium on promotions
    Had the strength dropped to ~9,500 before the reorg?

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Had the strength dropped to ~9,500 before the reorg?
    Yes as we had so little recruitment for the 3 years previous

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Irish construction costs for office/industrial building to owner occupier fit out standard range from €1000 (Ind) to €3000 (com) per sqm

    https://www.linesight.com/knowledge/...ion-costs-2016

    High end space requirements for tech companies like Google are 25sqm per employee

    If all 1,500 employees were given that much space each it would come to 37,500sqm (which is way way way over requirement)

    Cost would be circa €115million for Google/Facebook standard building (which we can all agree will never be required)

    Divide by 4 floors = 9,375sqm footprint = just under 100m X 100m building LxW

    The equitation schools' horse track in McKee alone would give you over 3 times the area.

    McKee has just under 200 car spaces in the main car park (googlemaps)
    Cost of a 3 storey 600 car park would be additional 12million

    So for roughly the cost of one ship, you would create better working conditions, efficiency, save money, break down silos and enable greater collaboration for 1,500 personnel.

    Also bear in mind that you would be saving 3-5million euro a year with the closure of Cathal Brugha.

    130million ÷ 3 = 43 year payback period based on savings alone. Through some capital investment money at it and it's less.

    So when you say that I'd be really interested to see your rebuttal facts and figures. #facts not #fiction
    Which is office space and say section rooms

    Accomodiation, stores, armoury, Dining hall extension, possible Mess extensions
    Last edited by DeV; 12th March 2018 at 08:58.

  16. #136
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    The last few pages of comments are a good example of theory (or the ideal world) versus reality.

    In the Ideal World
    CBB and McKee would be sold.
    DFHQ directorates would move to appropriate office space either in Dublin or co-located in Newbridge.
    Equitation school and catering school wold move to DFTC
    A brand spanking new barracks on the outskirts of Dublin would be build to accommodate the units in CBB.
    All of this would be funded by the sale of CBB and McKee from which we would get top dollar.

    In the real world
    There would be huge push back at the move of the horsey school.
    If any barracks would be sold it would be CBB.
    The new barracks would never be built.
    The DF would sell CBB for a song.
    The money would go to the exchequer and the DF would have to fund the relocation of troops out of existing budget.

    Or maybe I am getting cynical in my old age.

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  18. #137
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    It would cause another mass exodus from the organisation. The majority of Eq Sch people do not want to move out of Dublin due to geographical reasons, I have asked quite a few of them and given the size of the unit, a sample of any size represents quite a large % of the unit.

    Office accomodation for a Bde HQ and 7 units is one thing, transport workshops, ordnance workshops, CIS workshops, section rooms, MP station, armour bays, living out lines, living in lines, armouries, bde comcen, transport yard etc etc all need consideration.

    Then people are discounting the operational requirements that a presence on the south side provide and the proximity to defended vital installations.

    There are a lot of reasons why it shouldnt happen but that being said, as members of the DF we swing up our arms and go where told or take out ticket and leave by the front gate

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  20. #138
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    proximity to defended vital installations.
    Am I allowed to ask the nature of these vital installations and the frequency of when they have had to be defended?

    i would have thought in the days of gridlock traffic, outdated barracks with limited facilities a move to a green field site or at a least a site that already has key facilities would have been welcome.

    The Curragh is not beyond a reasonable commute, Baldonnel the same and well served by public transport.....everything can be looked at without conceding that it must change
    Time for another break I think......

  21. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Am I allowed to ask the nature of these vital installations and the frequency of when they have had to be defended?

    i would have thought in the days of gridlock traffic, outdated barracks with limited facilities a move to a green field site or at a least a site that already has key facilities would have been welcome.

    The Curragh is not beyond a reasonable commute, Baldonnel the same and well served by public transport.....everything can be looked at without conceding that it must change
    Outside of permanently manned barracks, the DF have additional 24/7/365 presence on certain vital installations that I will not name in public but may do to select people by PM

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  23. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    Outside of permanently manned barracks, the DF have additional 24/7/365 presence on certain vital installations that I will not name in public but may do to select people by PM
    None of which require a barracks in the middle of the city as opposed to one on the outskirts of the city (which I think is the question hptmurphy is asking)

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  25. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Am I allowed to ask the nature of these vital installations and the frequency of when they have had to be defended?

    i would have thought in the days of gridlock traffic, outdated barracks with limited facilities a move to a green field site or at a least a site that already has key facilities would have been welcome.

    The Curragh is not beyond a reasonable commute, Baldonnel the same and well served by public transport.....everything can be looked at without conceding that it must change
    As Fantasia says some have 24/7/365. Some of those are in the public domain (the strength isn’t).

    Some of them are relatively close to CBB.

    It isn’t just about the troops having to get through gridlocked traffic to get to work. Let’s say CBB & McKee were closed and everyone moved to a greenfield site outside the M50 (more than likely much further out than that).

    If the guys rotating on/off duties in those installations have to be driven through more of the gridlock (after reporting to barracks) they are going to have to leave earlier (the duty then becomes longer). Departure time could go from (just picking a time here for obvious reasons) 1700 to 1600. And at weekends is the public transport running to get the guys to barracks in time.

    Same applies for a GoH (again random timings) say there’s a GoH to be handed over at 1700 hrs at the Garden of Remembrance. That could mean troops onsite at 1500 hrs, leaving barracks at 1415 hrs, draw stores 1330 hrs, report barracks 1300 hrs and say you have 1 hour commute.

  26. #142
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    The DF would sell CBB for a song.
    Nominally to fund some wonderful-sounding inititative.

    As I reminded people above, there is still no social housing in the bit of Bricins we had to give up for said housing. There will be a GE before the year's out, likely as soon as the 8th is done , some crisis on one side or other will be the crux and TBH theres plenty to choose from. You'd need to be going out to tender for the sale of the land now
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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  28. #143
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    You mean the Central bank, hospital guard, Explosive production security guard, listed in every public DF annual report which also lists the frequency of the patrols over a year too?

    http://www.military.ie/info-centre/p...nnual-reports/

    McKee is only marginally further in reality than Cathal Brugha.

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  30. #144
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Outside of permanently manned barracks, the DF have additional 24/7/365 presence on certain vital installations that I will not name in public but may do to select people by PM
    Thanks I go the gist of the type of work from the DF report.

    My question remains if we have two barracks that struggle to be self sufficient with personnel probably because of under manning, why not condense the personnel at both locations into one , reducing the requirement for outside support and halving the running costs.

    It has been done before. Alan Shatter told Paul Pakenham to close Clonmel and redistribute the troops, Pakenham made a call and went to a football match.. 6 weeks later it was no longer a functioning military post!

    No one gave a shit about how the troops had to relocate and what commutes were involved.

    Clonmel had serious money pumped into it in the preceding ten years..I'm sure the new owners are delighted.

    If the guys rotating on/off duties in those installations have to be driven through more of the gridlock (after reporting to barracks) they are going to have to leave earlier (the duty then becomes longer). Departure time could go from (just picking a time here for obvious reasons) 1700 to 1600. And at weekends is the public transport running to get the guys to barracks in time.
    Given the precedents set at other locations you really need to come up with something else to justify keeping locations open.

    Again it actually highlights how ridiculous and wasteful the 24hr guard system is and how re aligning this with normal working practises could remove this as a potential (non) obstacle as it appears to be in some mindsets

    Same applies for a GoH (again random timings) say there’s a GoH to be handed over at 1700 hrs at the Garden of Remembrance. That could mean troops onsite at 1500 hrs, leaving barracks at 1415 hrs, draw stores 1330 hrs, report barracks 1300 hrs and say you have 1 hour commute.
    Same as anyone else.. you are detailed to do it ... just make sure you are on time! same as the guys who have to travel to the Garden of remembrance from Haulbowline.. you catch the early bus!!!!!

    Again the arguments are thin.

    Remember the location of the barracks has absolutely no justification in terms of the Irish Security situation other than they are a hangover from colonial times when barracks were located in towns to react in the event of the locals uprising.

    The fact that the higher ups in the Army have never conceded that they are less than ideal has meant that the Army has stagnated behind these very walls.

    The land value alone would justify vacating them and then looking at other locations, the running costs are equally huge and every add made to make them some viable is money down the drain as the day will come when someone sees the light.

    The same can be said for Cork , Limerick and Galway. We have a relatively modern fast efficient motorway stretching to all these locations from the Curragh and after a fashion Dublin.

    The greatest mistake we have made is giving tenure to people in the DF to singular locations probably for the duration of the careers which has made them highly inflexible. This is not a reflection of the people in the army, just the system that allowed it to be so.

    If a centralised location was to be identified part of any development plan would need to be affordable housing either for rent or sale within close proximity, ameneties such as schools , shops etc would also have to be considered.

    In the meantime we'll just plod along as before and since the sense of urgency has passed on the issue ,we'll need to wait for the next recession for a definite outcome.
    Time for another break I think......

  31. #145
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    My question remains if we have two barracks that struggle to be self sufficient with personnel probably because of under manning, why not condense the personnel at both locations into one , reducing the requirement for outside support and halving the running costs.
    One of those barracks doesn’t have any operational units that’s the problem (there is of course staff from the various parts of DFHQ (not sure if DFHQ CIS Coy, McKee Bks Coy, etc still exist but even if they do they aren’t flush with personnel (especially privates)).

    It has been done before. Alan Shatter told Paul Pakenham to close Clonmel and redistribute the troops, Pakenham made a call and went to a football match.. 6 weeks later it was no longer a functioning military post!
    your talking about a most 150 personnel with regard to Clonmel, in the case of McKee your talking a lot of infrastructure (eg comms, offices, IT etc) being required. In the case of CBB your talking a lot more personnel.

    No one gave a shit about how the troops had to relocate and what commutes were involved.
    correct.... and it’s wrong but the only way to change that is close nothing

    Clonmel had serious money pumped into it in the preceding ten years..I'm sure the new owners are delighted.
    the one and only time I was there was around 2012 or so hopeit was after that (or they got a refund)



    Given the precedents set at other locations you really need to come up with something else to justify keeping locations open.

    Again it actually highlights how ridiculous and wasteful the 24hr guard system is and how re aligning this with normal working practises could remove this as a potential (non) obstacle as it appears to be in some mindsets

    Same as anyone else.. you are detailed to do it ... just make sure you are on time! same as the guys who have to travel to the Garden of remembrance from Haulbowline.. you catch the early bus!!!!!

    Again the arguments are thin.

    Remember the location of the barracks has absolutely no justification in terms of the Irish Security situation other than they are a hangover from colonial times when barracks were located in towns to react in the event of the locals uprising.

    The fact that the higher ups in the Army have never conceded that they are less than ideal has meant that the Army has stagnated behind these very walls.

    The land value alone would justify vacating them and then looking at other locations, the running costs are equally huge and every add made to make them some viable is money down the drain as the day will come when someone sees the light.

    The same can be said for Cork , Limerick and Galway. We have a relatively modern fast efficient motorway stretching to all these locations from the Curragh and after a fashion Dublin.

    The greatest mistake we have made is giving tenure to people in the DF to singular locations probably for the duration of the careers which has made them highly inflexible. This is not a reflection of the people in the army, just the system that allowed it to be so.

    If a centralised location was to be identified part of any development plan would need to be affordable housing either for rent or sale within close proximity, ameneties such as schools , shops etc would also have to be considered.

    In the meantime we'll just plod along as before and since the sense of urgency has passed on the issue ,we'll need to wait for the next recession for a definite outcome.
    I think there is justification in having a barracks close to the capital, especially when there is a facility there already, both from a security and logistics point of view.

    The days of people staying in the same location are long gone if you want a career, officers change appointment (often with a change of location every 3-5 years), if other ranks want promotion that now often (not always) involves a location change as well.

    IMHO McKee has to close, move DFHQ to the DFTC. Sell McKee or transfer it to AGS to use instead of Harcourt Street

  32. #146
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    bricins should also be looked at IMHO

  33. #147
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    the one and only time I was there was around 2012 or so hopeit was after that (or they got a refund
    You should have seen some of it before hand to realise some of the work that was done both internally and externally!

    If your house is too big for the family... you move house! or adversely when the kids fcuk off eventually do you need to keep the seven bedroom mansion and its associated costs.

    When we had large units occupying and living in bks they were justified. In its day Clonmel house a full battalion (60s)several full size FCA units by the 90s that was down to two companies and by the noughties one company plus attachments.....there are several more examples of this type situation from the list.... again there is no immediate requirement to close but they will be targets next time round
    Time for another break I think......

  34. #148
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    What Bns were there before it became the 12th Bn? I did look online but couldn't find anything

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  36. #149
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Originally the 13th Bn was a PDF unit based in Clonmel. Its up over the door on one of the buildings
    Time for another break I think......

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  38. #150
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    Another reason for Bricins to close and colocate to either the Maher or rotunda

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/navy-me...ago-1521028800

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