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Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Part 2)

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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
    To correct myself the post reorg establishment was 500 personnel less than than the ECF
    Because the strength at the time of the ECF was 10,000 all ranks. The ECF was a mechanism by DPER to get a grip on public sector employment. The DF had a rigid structure so it wasn't an issue for us, other public sector bodies were not so lucky. It did allow us to get past the moratorium on promotions

    Comment


    • Originally posted by jack08 View Post
      I didn’t know that one bk guard was such a drain
      It is. You are looking at about 160,000 man hours a year lost on doing duties/restoff for one barracks alone.

      Now add in rations, fuel, electricity, duty pay, administration hours for pay, rostering etc etc

      Comment


      • For a start I see nowhere in the Green Party's stupid plan does it say it wants to pay for the Brugha, they just want to take it for nothing, so the DF won't get a cent. They also claim there are only 91 troops based there and the barracks is completely run down. This is only the first part of their plan, no dought they will be after Collins, Sarsfield and Renmore in part two.

        There is not a chance of being able to accommodate all the units from the Brugha into McKee. There is a bit of space but it wouldn't even come close. Since the failed reorg, the Brugha, like most barracks that had to absorb units and troops from barrack closers is overflowing. Both barracks are about the same size.

        The duty problem could be fixed by moving a Coy from 7 Inf Bn to McKee, there would be no shortage of volunteers. But that won't happen as it will mean the mini minister and CoS admitting there is a problem which both keep denying exists.

        As for building a new barracks in Baldonnel or Gormanston, the cost would run into hundreds of millions. There have always been ambitious plans for Gormanston over the years, but all these have come to nothing, simply because there is no money.

        Comment


        • where are you getting 160,000 man hours from.
          Last edited by jack08; 12 March 2018, 00:46.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by apod View Post
            Actually in this case they are right. Dublin has one too many Barracks at the moment.They moved all the troops out of Mckee but left the Directorates and the school of buns and as a result they are having to bring in troops from all over the 2BDE just to keep the place secure.What should happen is close the Brugha and move the units there to Mckee.That might prove problematic when you consider some of the historical buildings located in CBB but I am sure they could be listed or kept on by DoD and built around. Fair enough back in 2012 when they did the Bks cull the arse had fallen out of the property market but if you had to sell now CBB is as we know in D4,the most expensive real estate in the country.Besides would you want to seel McKee,which is arguably the best Bks we have architecture wise or CBB??

            No.Selling CBB would make money,save money and also improve the lives of the troops who are being dragged from as far away as Donegal to maintain the fantasy that we need to huge Barracks in Dublin
            Would argue that CBB is larger than McKee (unless my eyes deceive me).
            A huge building program would have to be undertaken in McKee to house all the units coing from CBB
            Agree that a sale of CBB would certainly be lucrative
            Rathmines is D6 though, not D4...
            "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jack08 View Post
              If the CBB was sold off, the DF would get nothing out it. Other than another Bks closed. as for troops doin duties in the CBB, are troops being transported to Dublin to do Guard in CBB?
              Troops are being pulled from pillar to post all over
              "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

              Comment


              • Irish construction costs for office/industrial building to owner occupier fit out standard range from €1000 (Ind) to €3000 (com) per sqm



                High end space requirements for tech companies like Google are 25sqm per employee

                If all 1,500 employees were given that much space each it would come to 37,500sqm (which is way way way over requirement)

                Cost would be circa €115million for Google/Facebook standard building (which we can all agree will never be required)

                Divide by 4 floors = 9,375sqm footprint = just under 100m X 100m building LxW

                The equitation schools' horse track in McKee alone would give you over 3 times the area.

                McKee has just under 200 car spaces in the main car park (googlemaps)
                Cost of a 3 storey 600 car park would be additional 12million

                So for roughly the cost of one ship, you would create better working conditions, efficiency, save money, break down silos and enable greater collaboration for 1,500 personnel.

                Also bear in mind that you would be saving 3-5million euro a year with the closure of Cathal Brugha.

                130million ÷ 3 = 43 year payback period based on savings alone. Through some capital investment money at it and it's less.

                So when you say that
                There is not a chance of being able to accommodate all the units from the Brugha into McKee
                I'd be really interested to see your rebuttal facts and figures. #facts not #fiction
                Last edited by TangoSierra; 12 March 2018, 01:16.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by jack08 View Post
                  where are you getting 160,000 man hours from.
                  From basic maths

                  Comment


                  • Just thinking - yes, by relocating the Equestrian School fully to DFTC (currently detachment in DFTC), you would free up space in McKee.
                    But how much of it would be useful?
                    Are all those structures up that end listed also - which would seriously impede developing the area into additional accomm/office/parking etc?
                    Also, extensive investment would have to be done in DFTC to replace the equestrian facilities lost from McKee, in such a scenario (yep, I know the argument about "why do we need the Eq School at all, etc)
                    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                    Comment


                    • you could ask, why we need a Bk Guard in Mckee

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
                        Just thinking - yes, by relocating the Equestrian School fully to DFTC (currently detachment in DFTC), you would free up space in McKee.
                        But how much of it would be useful?
                        Are all those structures up that end listed also - which would seriously impede developing the area into additional accomm/office/parking etc?
                        Also, extensive investment would have to be done in DFTC to replace the equestrian facilities lost from McKee, in such a scenario (yep, I know the argument about "why do we need the Eq School at all, etc)
                        The equestrian school is made up of stables, offices, storages and a field. Hardly break the bank stuff.

                        In relation to protected structures in the DF

                        . Written answers
                        Tuesday, 25 March 2014
                        Department of Defence
                        Defence Forces Properties
                        Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
                        Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

                        135. To ask the Minister for Defence in view of the fact that the surveying, listing and ongoing monitoring of protected buildings in the Defence property portfolio falls within the remit of the local authority, the number of meetings and level of engagement that took place between the Defence Forces property section and Kildare County Council in relation to these matters over the past five years. [12969/14]

                        Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
                        Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

                        137. To ask the Minister for Defence the number of conservation architects and building surveyors employed by the Defence Forces property section; the person responsible for deciding when a building should be demolished; and the expertise that is relied on to support that decision, particularly in relation to protected buildings. [12933/14]

                        Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)
                        Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

                        I propose to take Questions Nos. 135 and 137 together.

                        A small number of military buildings are included on the Record of Protected Structures of Kildare County Council. As there have been no plans to carry out material alterations to any of these protected structures my Department has not had the requirement to meet with the local authority in relation to these buildings within the last five years. I can confirm that as part of the ongoing process of managing the Defence property portfolio my Department monitors the Record of Protected Structures on an ongoing basis.

                        At present Conservation Architects are employed by my Department in relation to two projects, namely the restoration of the North Accommodation Block in McKee Barracks which is a protected structure, and the construction of a Military Archives Facility in Cathal Brugha Barracks. In most instances where external design teams are employed by my Department, the teams consists of an Architect (conservation qualified as necessary), a Structural Engineer, a Services Engineer and a Quantity Surveyor.

                        When it is proposed to demolish a building in a Defence Forces installation an application is submitted to my Department by the military authorities – each application is considered on its merits following consultation between officials in my Department and the Defence Forces Corps of Engineers before a final decision is made. To date no protected structures have been demolished by my Department or the Defence Forces.
                        Last edited by TangoSierra; 12 March 2018, 01:28.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jack08 View Post
                          you could ask, why we need a Bk Guard in Mckee
                          Location, location, location

                          Very close to national rail infrastructure (2 main stations, and luas line)

                          Right next door to Garda HQ

                          Critical infrastructure already onsite

                          Much easier and better access to M50 (meaning easier commuting from Athlone, Dundalk, Galway, Cork, DFTC)

                          Closer to Dublin airport

                          Equidistant from Baldonnel

                          Has extensive training grounds on its door step

                          City central

                          Only 16min from Govt buildings (8min from CBB)
                          Last edited by TangoSierra; 12 March 2018, 01:39.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
                            Because the strength at the time of the ECF was 10,000 all ranks. The ECF was a mechanism by DPER to get a grip on public sector employment. The DF had a rigid structure so it wasn't an issue for us, other public sector bodies were not so lucky. It did allow us to get past the moratorium on promotions
                            Had the strength dropped to ~9,500 before the reorg?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              Had the strength dropped to ~9,500 before the reorg?
                              Yes as we had so little recruitment for the 3 years previous

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                                Irish construction costs for office/industrial building to owner occupier fit out standard range from €1000 (Ind) to €3000 (com) per sqm



                                High end space requirements for tech companies like Google are 25sqm per employee

                                If all 1,500 employees were given that much space each it would come to 37,500sqm (which is way way way over requirement)

                                Cost would be circa €115million for Google/Facebook standard building (which we can all agree will never be required)

                                Divide by 4 floors = 9,375sqm footprint = just under 100m X 100m building LxW

                                The equitation schools' horse track in McKee alone would give you over 3 times the area.

                                McKee has just under 200 car spaces in the main car park (googlemaps)
                                Cost of a 3 storey 600 car park would be additional 12million

                                So for roughly the cost of one ship, you would create better working conditions, efficiency, save money, break down silos and enable greater collaboration for 1,500 personnel.

                                Also bear in mind that you would be saving 3-5million euro a year with the closure of Cathal Brugha.

                                130million ÷ 3 = 43 year payback period based on savings alone. Through some capital investment money at it and it's less.

                                So when you say that I'd be really interested to see your rebuttal facts and figures. #facts not #fiction
                                Which is office space and say section rooms

                                Accomodiation, stores, armoury, Dining hall extension, possible Mess extensions
                                Last edited by DeV; 12 March 2018, 09:58.

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