Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Part 2)

[Bravo20]

The last few pages of comments are a good example of theory (or the ideal world) versus reality.

In the Ideal World
CBB and McKee would be sold.
DFHQ directorates would move to appropriate office space either in Dublin or co-located in Newbridge.
Equitation school and catering school wold move to DFTC
A brand spanking new barracks on the outskirts of Dublin would be build to accommodate the units in CBB.
All of this would be funded by the sale of CBB and McKee from which we would get top dollar.

In the real world
There would be huge push back at the move of the horsey school.
If any barracks would be sold it would be CBB.
The new barracks would never be built.
The DF would sell CBB for a song.
The money would go to the exchequer and the DF would have to fund the relocation of troops out of existing budget.

Or maybe I am getting cynical in my old age.

[Fantasia]

It would cause another mass exodus from the organisation. The majority of Eq Sch people do not want to move out of Dublin due to geographical reasons, I have asked quite a few of them and given the size of the unit, a sample of any size represents quite a large % of the unit.

Office accomodation for a Bde HQ and 7 units is one thing, transport workshops, ordnance workshops, CIS workshops, section rooms, MP station, armour bays, living out lines, living in lines, armouries, bde comcen, transport yard etc etc all need consideration.

Then people are discounting the operational requirements that a presence on the south side provide and the proximity to defended vital installations.

There are a lot of reasons why it shouldnt happen but that being said, as members of the DF we swing up our arms and go where told or take out ticket and leave by the front gate

[hptmurphy]

proximity to defended vital installations.

Am I allowed to ask the nature of these vital installations and the frequency of when they have had to be defended?

i would have thought in the days of gridlock traffic, outdated barracks with limited facilities a move to a green field site or at a least a site that already has key facilities would have been welcome.

The Curragh is not beyond a reasonable commute, Baldonnel the same and well served by public transport.....everything can be looked at without conceding that it must change

[Fantasia]

Am I allowed to ask the nature of these vital installations and the frequency of when they have had to be defended?

i would have thought in the days of gridlock traffic, outdated barracks with limited facilities a move to a green field site or at a least a site that already has key facilities would have been welcome.

The Curragh is not beyond a reasonable commute, Baldonnel the same and well served by public transport.....everything can be looked at without conceding that it must change

Outside of permanently manned barracks, the DF have additional 24/7/365 presence on certain vital installations that I will not name in public but may do to select people by PM

[Bravo20]

Outside of permanently manned barracks, the DF have additional 24/7/365 presence on certain vital installations that I will not name in public but may do to select people by PM

None of which require a barracks in the middle of the city as opposed to one on the outskirts of the city (which I think is the question hptmurphy is asking)

[DeV]

Am I allowed to ask the nature of these vital installations and the frequency of when they have had to be defended?

i would have thought in the days of gridlock traffic, outdated barracks with limited facilities a move to a green field site or at a least a site that already has key facilities would have been welcome.

The Curragh is not beyond a reasonable commute, Baldonnel the same and well served by public transport.....everything can be looked at without conceding that it must change

As Fantasia says some have 24/7/365. Some of those are in the public domain (the strength isn’t).

Some of them are relatively close to CBB.

It isn’t just about the troops having to get through gridlocked traffic to get to work. Let’s say CBB & McKee were closed and everyone moved to a greenfield site outside the M50 (more than likely much further out than that).

If the guys rotating on/off duties in those installations have to be driven through more of the gridlock (after reporting to barracks) they are going to have to leave earlier (the duty then becomes longer). Departure time could go from (just picking a time here for obvious reasons) 1700 to 1600. And at weekends is the public transport running to get the guys to barracks in time.

Same applies for a GoH (again random timings) say there’s a GoH to be handed over at 1700 hrs at the Garden of Remembrance. That could mean troops onsite at 1500 hrs, leaving barracks at 1415 hrs, draw stores 1330 hrs, report barracks 1300 hrs and say you have 1 hour commute.

[trellheim]

The DF would sell CBB for a song.

Nominally to fund some wonderful-sounding inititative.

As I reminded people above, there is still no social housing in the bit of Bricins we had to give up for said housing. There will be a GE before the year's out, likely as soon as the 8th is done , some crisis on one side or other will be the crux and TBH theres plenty to choose from. You'd need to be going out to tender for the sale of the land now

[TangoSierra]

You mean the Central bank, hospital guard, Explosive production security guard, listed in every public DF annual report which also lists the frequency of the patrols over a year too?

http://www.military.ie/info-centre/publications/dod-df-annual-reports/

McKee is only marginally further in reality than Cathal Brugha.

[hptmurphy]

Outside of permanently manned barracks, the DF have additional 24/7/365 presence on certain vital installations that I will not name in public but may do to select people by PM

Thanks I go the gist of the type of work from the DF report.

My question remains if we have two barracks that struggle to be self sufficient with personnel probably because of under manning, why not condense the personnel at both locations into one , reducing the requirement for outside support and halving the running costs.

It has been done before. Alan Shatter told Paul Pakenham to close Clonmel and redistribute the troops, Pakenham made a call and went to a football match.. 6 weeks later it was no longer a functioning military post!

No one gave a shit about how the troops had to relocate and what commutes were involved.

Clonmel had serious money pumped into it in the preceding ten years..I'm sure the new owners are delighted.

If the guys rotating on/off duties in those installations have to be driven through more of the gridlock (after reporting to barracks) they are going to have to leave earlier (the duty then becomes longer). Departure time could go from (just picking a time here for obvious reasons) 1700 to 1600. And at weekends is the public transport running to get the guys to barracks in time.

Given the precedents set at other locations you really need to come up with something else to justify keeping locations open.

Again it actually highlights how ridiculous and wasteful the 24hr guard system is and how re aligning this with normal working practises could remove this as a potential (non) obstacle as it appears to be in some mindsets

Same applies for a GoH (again random timings) say there’s a GoH to be handed over at 1700 hrs at the Garden of Remembrance. That could mean troops onsite at 1500 hrs, leaving barracks at 1415 hrs, draw stores 1330 hrs, report barracks 1300 hrs and say you have 1 hour commute.

Same as anyone else.. you are detailed to do it ... just make sure you are on time! same as the guys who have to travel to the Garden of remembrance from Haulbowline.. you catch the early bus!!!!!

Again the arguments are thin.

Remember the location of the barracks has absolutely no justification in terms of the Irish Security situation other than they are a hangover from colonial times when barracks were located in towns to react in the event of the locals uprising.

The fact that the higher ups in the Army have never conceded that they are less than ideal has meant that the Army has stagnated behind these very walls.

The land value alone would justify vacating them and then looking at other locations, the running costs are equally huge and every add made to make them some viable is money down the drain as the day will come when someone sees the light.

The same can be said for Cork , Limerick and Galway. We have a relatively modern fast efficient motorway stretching to all these locations from the Curragh and after a fashion Dublin.

The greatest mistake we have made is giving tenure to people in the DF to singular locations probably for the duration of the careers which has made them highly inflexible. This is not a reflection of the people in the army, just the system that allowed it to be so.

If a centralised location was to be identified part of any development plan would need to be affordable housing either for rent or sale within close proximity, ameneties such as schools , shops etc would also have to be considered.

In the meantime we'll just plod along as before and since the sense of urgency has passed on the issue ,we'll need to wait for the next recession for a definite outcome.

[DeV]

My question remains if we have two barracks that struggle to be self sufficient with personnel probably because of under manning, why not condense the personnel at both locations into one , reducing the requirement for outside support and halving the running costs.

One of those barracks doesn’t have any operational units that’s the problem (there is of course staff from the various parts of DFHQ (not sure if DFHQ CIS Coy, McKee Bks Coy, etc still exist but even if they do they aren’t flush with personnel (especially privates)).

It has been done before. Alan Shatter told Paul Pakenham to close Clonmel and redistribute the troops, Pakenham made a call and went to a football match.. 6 weeks later it was no longer a functioning military post!

your talking about a most 150 personnel with regard to Clonmel, in the case of McKee your talking a lot of infrastructure (eg comms, offices, IT etc) being required. In the case of CBB your talking a lot more personnel.

No one gave a shit about how the troops had to relocate and what commutes were involved.

correct.... and it’s wrong but the only way to change that is close nothing

Clonmel had serious money pumped into it in the preceding ten years..I'm sure the new owners are delighted.

the one and only time I was there was around 2012 or so hopeit was after that (or they got a refund)

Given the precedents set at other locations you really need to come up with something else to justify keeping locations open.

Again it actually highlights how ridiculous and wasteful the 24hr guard system is and how re aligning this with normal working practises could remove this as a potential (non) obstacle as it appears to be in some mindsets

Same as anyone else.. you are detailed to do it ... just make sure you are on time! same as the guys who have to travel to the Garden of remembrance from Haulbowline.. you catch the early bus!!!!!

Again the arguments are thin.

Remember the location of the barracks has absolutely no justification in terms of the Irish Security situation other than they are a hangover from colonial times when barracks were located in towns to react in the event of the locals uprising.

The fact that the higher ups in the Army have never conceded that they are less than ideal has meant that the Army has stagnated behind these very walls.

The land value alone would justify vacating them and then looking at other locations, the running costs are equally huge and every add made to make them some viable is money down the drain as the day will come when someone sees the light.

The same can be said for Cork , Limerick and Galway. We have a relatively modern fast efficient motorway stretching to all these locations from the Curragh and after a fashion Dublin.

The greatest mistake we have made is giving tenure to people in the DF to singular locations probably for the duration of the careers which has made them highly inflexible. This is not a reflection of the people in the army, just the system that allowed it to be so.

If a centralised location was to be identified part of any development plan would need to be affordable housing either for rent or sale within close proximity, ameneties such as schools , shops etc would also have to be considered.

In the meantime we'll just plod along as before and since the sense of urgency has passed on the issue ,we'll need to wait for the next recession for a definite outcome.

I think there is justification in having a barracks close to the capital, especially when there is a facility there already, both from a security and logistics point of view.

The days of people staying in the same location are long gone if you want a career, officers change appointment (often with a change of location every 3-5 years), if other ranks want promotion that now often (not always) involves a location change as well.

IMHO McKee has to close, move DFHQ to the DFTC. Sell McKee or transfer it to AGS to use instead of Harcourt Street

[DeV]

bricins should also be looked at IMHO

[hptmurphy]

the one and only time I was there was around 2012 or so hopeit was after that (or they got a refund

You should have seen some of it before hand to realise some of the work that was done both internally and externally!

If your house is too big for the family... you move house! or adversely when the kids fcuk off eventually do you need to keep the seven bedroom mansion and its associated costs.

When we had large units occupying and living in bks they were justified. In its day Clonmel house a full battalion (60s)several full size FCA units by the 90s that was down to two companies and by the noughties one company plus attachments.....there are several more examples of this type situation from the list.... again there is no immediate requirement to close but they will be targets next time round

[Fantasia]

What Bns were there before it became the 12th Bn? I did look online but couldn't find anything

[hptmurphy]

Originally the 13th Bn was a PDF unit based in Clonmel. Its up over the door on one of the buildings

[TangoSierra]

Another reason for Bricins to close and colocate to either the Maher or rotunda

https://www.wsj.com/articles/navy-medics-get-prepared-for-combatwith-tour-of-duty-in-chicago-1521028800