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View Poll Results: Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Multiple Choice)

Voters
50. You may not vote on this poll
  • McKee Bks - Dublin

    5 10.00%
  • Cathal Brugha Bks - Dublin

    7 14.00%
  • St Bricins Hospital - Dublin

    29 58.00%
  • Casement Aerodrome - Dublin

    4 8.00%
  • Aiken Bks - Dundalk, Louth

    0 0%
  • Gormanston Aerodrome - Meath

    7 14.00%
  • Custume Bks - Athlone, Westmeath

    3 6.00%
  • Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa - Galway

    2 4.00%
  • Finner Camp - Donegal

    1 2.00%
  • Ballymullen Bks - Tralee

    23 46.00%
  • Stephens Bks - Kilkenny

    16 32.00%
  • Curragh Camp - Kildare

    0 0%
  • Collins Bks - Cork

    4 8.00%
  • Haulbowline - Cork

    3 6.00%
  • Sarsfield Bks - Limerick

    3 6.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #26
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Show specific examples backed by evidence/facts in your posts. Otherwise your points are nothing more than the equivalent of "But we've always done it like this" or "You cant do that! - Why? - " You just cant ok!"
    LOL......Dev in one sentence!!!!!
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

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  3. #27
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    You miss the point Dev. The money being spent now on existing infrastructure would be re assigned to develop the Curragh.
    You mean the total budget of € 10.062 m (2015 estimates) for all the DF for all capital built infrastructure ?

    The €45 million left could form a fund for equipment (or 1/2 of a ship). There are many many examples of modern military barracks facilitating over 4000 troops including vehicles and equipment in less space than the area surrounded by trees of the Curragh Camp.

    There will be no "eating into exercise lands". Potential sites for vehicle storage of the entire DF inventory, administration buildings for a Bde+ and accommodation for over 2000 troops can all occur within the 1/2 the existing foot print of the West Curragh camp alone.
    and you will only have that money after the sale (CIF were in the news today giving out that the banks aren't lending to developers (allowing them to build)). So where do we get the money to build the necessary new facilities in the Curragh to increase the numbers based there by 75%? Because they need to be put in place before the troops can move (and possibly before it is offered for sale).

    I'm not saying it is impossible but within the current financial constraints it's unlikely to be viable. There are a good few unused buildings that could be renovated/knocked in the DFTC currently but after that you are either taking over squares, car parking, immediately at the sides of the roads and then most likely the southern part of the camp.

    Time is an important factor. But you seem to think or suggest that the DF could deploy a Bn within 30min. it cant.
    not suggesting that
    Last edited by DeV; 5th December 2016 at 21:11.

  4. #28
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    Again with the No, No No, cant do this becasue.. you just cant....we've always done it this way....

    A proportion of the infrastructure budget could be directed at the DFTC. It would be much better than some of the money pit projects currently in the works. Money for buying of land does not only come form Irish Banks or Irish Developers. 2 Grand Canal and Clancy were bought by international investors. A phased sale of each site would release money to build the required facilities

    The majority of buildings in the DFTC need to be demolished. They are expensive money pits that add a massive drain on infrastructure funds. Modern, functional, multi-use and energy efficient buildings and facilities can accomodate more people in a more collaborative way in a reduced footprint. And whats wrong with using "squares" to build on? The existing West Camp has more than enough usable space without the Southern parts even being considered. In fact the majority of the southern slope of the DFTC could be returned to grass land, while still in creasing the numbers of personnel based there.

    It costs €416 Million to pay the wages of 9,500 personnel. This money has been budgeted for in 2015. The DF is currently below 9,000.

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/...sonnel+Data%22

    €43,789 average per person. (Before anyone gets enraged I know this does not apply to all! - its an average for rough approximation)

    €43,789 x 500 = €21.9 Million will be handed back.

    Half of this or €12 Million will go to service the increases in the DF Pension Vote. That leaves €10 Million. More than enough to get started on facilities in the DFTC.

    If the NZ Army can consolidate the vast majority of their forces into an area the same size as the Curragh Camp at Linton Camp, the DF can too.

    http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/pub...y-location.pdf
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 8th December 2016 at 11:12.

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  6. #29
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
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    The shortfall in the wages bill is currently being used for capital procurement, namely the ships etc.

    Of course anything is possible, and yes the current locations of barracks do not really meet the current needs. The only problem is that to change it, it would require a major re-think on how the DF is structured, which is something nobody really wants to do and would probably meet huge resistance from many corners.

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  8. #30
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    Accepted. It proves the case that it can be done. If the DF can buy €90 Million ships, it can buy €90 Million facility consolidation.

    In response to "Nobody really wants to do it" - Where are all the Security and Defence Commentators gone? The White Paper said it needs a detailed study. Is no one on this forum willing to even try and help in that regard?

    If a detailed study and proposal can be put forward that is backed by fact and figures, it will make it harder for the political resistance to justify their self-centered vote protectionism.

    "Plans are nothing, Planning is everything"
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 8th December 2016 at 14:23.

  9. #31
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    We've got to be the only military in the developed world that has to sell off barracks to buy equipment. Most of our buildings were built by the brits and the DF specialise in letting them fall into ruin!

    What is Tralee actually used for? Brickins could be sold for a good bit of money, there's a few RDF barracks down the country that'll be sold when they get around to binning units not located in PDF barracks. Other than these few closing any other location will required binning a battalion or two as there's no chance we'll build a new barracks to replace the closed one. However the only barracks that are actually worth money are in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway...
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  11. #32
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    Case 2 - St Bricins

    Current Site Size = 6.56 acres

    Sale Price

    Neighbouring site on Infirmary Road = 2.75 acres (14/2.75 = €5.09 Million per Acre)

    St Bricins potential sale price = 6.56 acres x €5.09 Million = €33.4 Million

    In total, 584 homes are planned for O’Devaney Gardens, 101 of which will be houses, with apartments in blocks of four to five storeys. Another 30 social homes will be located on a neighbouring site on Infirmary Road. The council has put an indicative value of €14 million on the site and is proposing to offer all or parts of the land for sale by public tender, with conditions relating to tenure mix and future use.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/socia...omes-1.2896850


    Defence Forces Properties

    http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas....5102000070#N38

    356. Deputy Shane Ross Information on Shane P.N. Ross Zoom on Shane P.N. Ross asked the Minister for Defence Information on Simon Coveney Zoom on Simon Coveney his plans to close Saint Bricin's Military Hospital in Dublin 7; if so, the timeframe for the closure; in the event of closure, if the Government is committed to building a purpose-built military hospital in another location; if it is not to close, if the Government will ensure that it is included in the upcoming legislation from the Department of Health covering local hospital groups, thus ensuring that the clinical governance and services available there meet agreed national best practice; if he will commit to ensuring that adequate investment in the hospital is made to bring it up to acceptable national standards; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35954/15]

    Minister for Defence (Deputy Simon Coveney): Information on Simon Coveney Zoom on Simon Coveney St. Bricin's is not a military hospital and does not provide the types of services which would be provided in hospitals run for example by the HSE. Also, it does not provide any services to the general public.

    St. Bricin's operates as a military medical facility providing General Practitioner and some outpatient services to members of the Defence Forces. It also has a very small lying-in capacity that can provide limited nursing services for patients. For reasons of economy and efficiency, the majority of secondary health care for members of the Defence Forces is provided through the public and private health system.

    A decision was taken to close the St. Bricin’s military medical facility as part of the decentralisation programme. That decision included a provision that St. Bricin's would remain in operation as a military medical facility pending the provision of suitable alternative facilities. To date it has not proved possible to advance that project given available resources and the Defence Forces priorities in relation to infrastructure investment.

    In relation to governance and standards, the Director of the Defence Forces' Medical Branch has responsibility for clinical governance and ensuring that medical services/treatment provided to Defence Forces personnel meet best practice and required standards. In addition, as St. Bricin's is not a hospital and there are no plans to upgrade its status or to provide for a hospital facility within the Defence Forces, the question of it being included in Department of Health legislation covering hospital groups does not arise.

    The closure of four more barracks — Monaghan, Lifford, Longford and Letterkenny — as well as St Bricin’s Hospital in Dublin was announced in 2009, involving the relocation of 595 personnel.
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...es-174201.html

  12. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    We've got to be the only military in the developed world that has to sell off barracks to buy equipment. .
    au contraire mon frere...

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-37287613

    A total of 13 Ministry of Defence sites will be sold to provide land for up to 17,017 homes and will raise £225m, the government has said.
    Defence minister Mark Lancaster said 12,565 of the homes were "expected to materialise in this Parliament".

    The New Zealand Defence Force has made nearly $150 million over the past five years through its defence housing disposal programme.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/261713/defence-housing-sell-off-nets-$150m

    The Pentagon is threatening to start closing down unneeded military bases unilaterally if Congress continues to refuse to launch a new Base Closure and Realignment Commission.
    http://www.militarytimes.com/story/m...brac/83240864/

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  14. #34
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    NZ are competing with us in a who can spend the least on their DF contest. £225M is a pretty small number in the MOD budget compared to their equipment projects and ditto the USA
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  16. #35
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    Protected Structures on Military Property - Demolishing

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-03-25a.7

    Department of Defence
    Defence Forces Properties

    All Written Answers on 25 Mar 2014
    Next answer »

    Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
    Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
    135. To ask the Minister for Defence in view of the fact that the surveying, listing and ongoing monitoring of protected buildings in the Defence property portfolio falls within the remit of the local authority, the number of meetings and level of engagement that took place between the Defence Forces property section and Kildare County Council in relation to these matters over the past five years. [12969/14]

    Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
    Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
    137. To ask the Minister for Defence the number of conservation architects and building surveyors employed by the Defence Forces property section; the person responsible for deciding when a building should be demolished; and the expertise that is relied on to support that decision, particularly in relation to protected buildings. [12933/14]

    Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)
    Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
    I propose to take Questions Nos. 135 and 137 together.
    A small number of military buildings are included on the Record of Protected Structures of Kildare County Council. As there have been no plans to carry out material alterations to any of these protected structures my Department has not had the requirement to meet with the local authority in relation to these buildings within the last five years. I can confirm that as part of the ongoing process of managing the Defence property portfolio my Department monitors the Record of Protected Structures on an ongoing basis.
    At present Conservation Architects are employed by my Department in relation to two projects, namely the restoration of the North Accommodation Block in McKee Barracks which is a protected structure, and the construction of a Military Archives Facility in Cathal Brugha Barracks. In most instances where external design teams are employed by my Department, the teams consists of an Architect (conservation qualified as necessary), a Structural Engineer, a Services Engineer and a Quantity Surveyor.
    When it is proposed to demolish a building in a Defence Forces installation an application is submitted to my Department by the military authorities – each application is considered on its merits following consultation between officials in my Department and the Defence Forces Corps of Engineers before a final decision is made. To date no protected structures have been demolished by my Department or the Defence Forces.

  17. #36
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    Consolidation of Warehousing and Storage

    http://defence.ie/website.nsf/VFM_5

    3.56 As noted above there are 100+ separate stores countrywide, although some of them
    may carry minimal inventory in storage. It is understood that this represents a major
    rationalisation in historic terms. Nevertheless the scope for further rationalisation is worthy of
    examination. A review of the latter must balance what is most efficient in terms of storing
    inventory with the diverse day to day and strategic needs of the Defence Forces in all locations.
    The Chair and Secretary were briefed by the Health Service Executive (HSE) on a major
    consolidation of stores project that the Executive has on hands. This involves the consolidation
    of the current stores infrastructure (70+ stores) to a National distribution centre
    supplying nine
    transhipment hubs. An estimated full year efficiency saving of €9m is envisaged.

  18. #37
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    Schedule of Land and Buildings - Vested in Minister for Defence

    http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/a.../vote%2036.pdf

    Schedule of Land and Buildings

    1. Vested in the Minister for Defence

    Property Area (Hectares)1
    Clare
    Knockalisheen Camp 53.17
    Cork
    Murphy Barracks, Ballincollig 0.89
    Collins Barracks, Cork 24.20
    Portion of Camp Field, Collins Barracks —
    Old Barracks & Graveyard, Fermoy 4.45
    Fitzgerald Camp, Fermoy 0.401
    RDF Premises, Kilcrohane 0.405
    Michael Collins Memorial Plot, Beál na Bláth 0.0040
    RDF Premises, Skibbereen 0.20
    RDF Premises, Mallow 0.028
    RDF Premises, Youghal 0.045
    Part of old Military Barracks, Buttevant —
    Dublin
    Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel including
    sewage farm & land adjacent
    277.21
    Esplanade, Collins Barracks 0.20
    Site at Islandbridge, Dublin 8. 0.405
    Galway
    Oranmore Rifle Range 216.10
    Springfield Water Supply to Oranmore Range —
    Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa, Galway 29.95
    Kerry
    Ballymullen Barracks, Tralee 6.07
    Fort Shannon, Tarbert 0.81
    RDF Premises, Kilorglin 0.10
    Kildare
    Curragh Camp and Lands 1,970.82
    Curragh Lands – Kildare By-Pass —
    Houses at Orchard Park (2,23,78,85,96), Curragh —
    Magee Barracks, Kildare 22.79
    Lands at Blackrath, Curragh. 14.37
    Kilkenny
    Stephens’ Barracks, Kilkenny 5.67
    Louth
    Red Barns Rifle Range, Dundalk 5.46
    Meath
    Gormanston Camp and Aerodrome 105.62
    RDF Premises, Navan 0.20
    Offaly
    Former Military Barracks, Birr 1.98
    1 Hectarages stated are approximate. Most of the properties contain buildings thereon.
    24 Vote 36 Defence
    Roscommon
    Rifle Range, Carna 114.53
    Tipperary
    Rifle Range, Kilcoran 5.46
    Barnane Rifle Range, Templemore —
    Waterford
    Military Barracks, Waterford 0.32
    Westmeath
    Columb Barracks, Mullingar 9.61
    Custume Barracks, Athlone 5.26
    Garrynafela Lands, Athlone 5.97
    Wicklow
    Glen of Imaal Artillery Range 2,698.85
    Coolmooney Camp and Lands 97.53
    Rockbrae House and Lands, Bray 1.95
    Range Warden’s Post, Seskin 0.405

  19. #38
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    Schedule of Land - Vested in the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform

    Schedule of Land and Buildings

    2. Vested in the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform

    Property Area
    (Hectares)1
    Clare
    RDF Premises, Ennis 0.10
    Cork
    Kilworth Camp and Range 1,377.55
    Portion at Kilworth Camp for provision of road services to
    NRA
    10.69
    Bere Island 91.05
    Naval Base, Haulbowline2
    33.99
    Fort Davis, Whitegate 29.95
    Fort Templebreedy, Crosshaven 14.97
    Furious Pier, Castletownbere —
    Landing Pier, Cobh —
    Donegal
    Finner Camp, Bundoran 339.94
    Dublin
    Cathal Brugha Barracks, Rathmines 18.62
    Cathal Brugha Barracks No 17 – 28 Quarters —
    McKee Barracks, Blackhorse Avenue 18.21
    McKee Park, No 64 —
    1
    Hectarages stated are approximate. Most of the properties contain buildings thereon.
    2
    Temporarily transferred to the Department of Agriculture, Food & the Marine for remedial work on the
    ISPAT site.
    25 Appropriation**Account 2015
    St. Bricin’s Hospital, D7. 3.24
    Old School House, Arbour Hill —
    2 Tomar Court, Arbour Hill —
    Laois
    RDF Premises, Portlaoise 0.03
    Limerick
    Sarsfield Barracks, Limerick 5.99
    Longford
    Connolly Barracks, Longford 4.35
    Louth
    Aiken Barracks, Dundalk 7.28
    Mayo
    Military Barracks, Castlebar 2.43
    Roscommon
    Rifle Range, Cushla 56.25
    Military Barracks, Boyle 0.20
    Tipperary
    Military Barracks, Nenagh 1.09
    Part of McCann Bks., Templemore 0.16
    Wexford
    Military Barracks, Wexford 0.405
    Wicklow
    Kilbride Camp and Rifle Range 636.98

  20. #39
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    TangoSierra, I'm not saying it can't be done or that it shouldn't be.

    But we also have to be realistic.

    As B20 says not recruiting people is what is paying for the OPVs. Well guess what once we have paid for the OPVs, there is a MRV, 2 CPVs, APCs, CASA replacements, ISTAR a/c, etc to buy.

    Like the idea of the phased sale, it would be a lot more manageable but there would be issues for both sides eg services (water, esb), planning, etc etc.

    In the case of CBB, you could sell say the Tpt Yard, 2 Cav lines and the Church in 1 lot, then say the gym and I think 2 CIS as another, then Bde HQ and COMCEN, then the area where the prefabs used to be and so on.

    Equally then in the Curragh, knock all around McDermott Square and build 1 large U shaped block (or several larger deeper blocks), then Clarke, etc etc.

    But that is ok for empty building but what about those which are occupied.

    We aren't talking a 5-10 year plan it would be much slower.

    Bricins is a prime candidate for sale. My big fear would be how much land will the Dept of Housing/DCC take for free.

    In relation to there being some many stores, depends what way they are counting them. Is each building with a stores in it a stores or is each separate locked door in the armoury a stores ?

  21. #40
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Have any barracks that were sold off actually been developed? Mullingar and Longford are lying idle aren't they? From all the parliamentary questions it seems tds want them turned into free halls for local groups to use as they wish.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  23. #41
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    Guys. Where are you going with this ?
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  25. #42
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Accommodation along the lines of this
    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...sign_Guide.pdf

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  27. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    If a detailed study and proposal can be put forward that is backed by fact and figures, it will make it harder for the political resistance to justify their self-centered vote protectionism.

    "Plans are nothing, Planning is everything"
    A bit deluded but I love your optimism

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  29. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    Have any barracks that were sold off actually been developed? Mullingar and Longford are lying idle aren't they? From all the parliamentary questions it seems tds want them turned into free halls for local groups to use as they wish.
    Ballincollig-Clancy come to mind. Since MQ's have been done away is there any need for 3 schools in DFTC?

  30. #45
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Bricins has been used for emergency housing 25 homeless people for around 3 years

  31. #46
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    Not really a valid reason to keep a rather under-utilised and out of date facility open.

    Bearing in mind "emergency housing for homeless" is not a military of even DoD remit. More of the usual Irish cheap alternative solution methodology rather than the responsible Depts actually dealing with the issue properly.

    Don't even mention some of the issues that have arisen within the hospital due to same said persons being accommodated in the facility.
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

  32. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Ballincollig-Clancy come to mind. Since MQ's have been done away is there any need for 3 schools in DFTC?
    I'm sure there's probably families living in the vicinity of the camp whose kids attend school there, who would otherwise have to attend school in Newbridge or Kildare town. Plus the convenience of service personnel being able to drop kids to school in the camp. But yep, unsure why there are two primary schools in the camp?
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  33. #48
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    Having schools for small children in the vicinity of an munitions/explosive dump is not a good idea.

  34. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    I'm sure there's probably families living in the vicinity of the camp whose kids attend school there, who would otherwise have to attend school in Newbridge or Kildare town. Plus the convenience of service personnel being able to drop kids to school in the camp. But yep, unsure why there are two primary schools in the camp?
    Isn't there a school in Brownstown also?
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  35. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Isn't there a school in Brownstown also?
    And Ballysax, Cut Bush, Green Road (x2) Athgarvan, It is very difficult to access the Camp without passing by or near a school. Hard to see why the DoD is supplying three sites within the DFTC for schools when accomodation is in short supply for regular DF needs.

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