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View Poll Results: Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Multiple Choice)

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46. You may not vote on this poll
  • McKee Bks - Dublin

    4 8.70%
  • Cathal Brugha Bks - Dublin

    6 13.04%
  • St Bricins Hospital - Dublin

    28 60.87%
  • Casement Aerodrome - Dublin

    3 6.52%
  • Aiken Bks - Dundalk, Louth

    0 0%
  • Gormanston Aerodrome - Meath

    6 13.04%
  • Custume Bks - Athlone, Westmeath

    3 6.52%
  • Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa - Galway

    2 4.35%
  • Finner Camp - Donegal

    1 2.17%
  • Ballymullen Bks - Tralee

    22 47.83%
  • Stephens Bks - Kilkenny

    16 34.78%
  • Curragh Camp - Kildare

    0 0%
  • Collins Bks - Cork

    4 8.70%
  • Haulbowline - Cork

    3 6.52%
  • Sarsfield Bks - Limerick

    3 6.52%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #76
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    Yes they are!!
    stand corrected

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    The Engr Field Coy is Athlone. That is only a sub-unit
    Am I missing something? What else is there besides a Bde Eng Coy?
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  3. #78
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Am I missing something? What else is there besides a Bde Eng Coy?
    Maint Engrs, HQ, staff officers etc

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Am I missing something? What else is there besides a Bde Eng Coy?
    There is not a Bde Engr Coy. There is a Bde Engr Gp which has a HQ, an I&U Coy and a Fd Engr Coy

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  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    There is not a Bde Engr Coy. There is a Bde Engr Gp which has a HQ, an I&U Coy and a Fd Engr Coy
    Ta
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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    Provision of Cost-Rental Public Housing: Motion [Private Members] - Cathal Brigham /

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debate...nce+force#g480

    Dáil debates
    Tuesday, 6 March 2018
    Provision of Cost-Rental Public Housing: Motion [Private Members]

    6:45 pm

    Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
    Link to this: Individually | In context

    I move:

    That Dáil Éireann:notes that:
    — we are in the midst of a housing crisis which is undermining our society and threatens our economy;

    — since 2010, rents in Dublin have increased by an average of 81%;

    — there are 700 sites in public ownership around the country which have recently been identified by the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government as having potential for housing development;

    — the Government is overly dependent on the private sector for the provision of new housing supply, relying solely on increasing such supply will not address the affordability issue as developers will bid up the prices for available land, leading to further increases in house prices and rents;

    — the provision of new social housing, using differential rents, will not on its own address the housing crisis, as it will not affect rent and property price rises in the private sector;

    — providing a direct subsidy to existing private market rents similarly fails the test of helping reduce overall rents and would prove very expensive to the exchequer without the State ever acquiring any additional assets;

    — EUROSTAT has recently indicated that approved housing bodies will not be able to avail of off-balance sheet financing for the provision of new homes;

    — 1,000 new apartments are currently under construction in the docklands area of Dublin but most of those units are already sold to international corporations for the use of their staff;

    — we must avoid the mistakes made in other international high-tech cities, where local people are frozen out of the housing market and public servants are unable to afford housing close to hospitals, schools and other social and public services;

    — European countries with more stable, affordable and socially inclusive housing systems support large-scale provision of secure cost rental accommodation where rents reflect costs, not the maximum that the market will sustain;

    — the case for a new more ‘unitary’ public housing model was set out in a report compiled by the National Economic and Social Council, entitled Social Housing at the Crossroads: Possibilities for Investment, Provision and Cost Rental, in June 2014, which proposed the widespread adoption of a cost rental housing model;

    — a cost rental model of housing can reduce development cost by availing of low interest rate public finance, publicly owned land, economies of scale from large-scale development and the absence of profit margins to private developers;

    — this model will enable national public housing sectors to remain off-balance sheet, which allows investment to continue through downturns in economic activity;

    — cost rental housing schemes could be funded through a combination of the European Investment Bank and other European Union funding institutions, credit unions, pension funds, Home Building Finance Ireland which funds from the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, the Housing Finance Agency, and Exchequer funding, as appropriate;

    — this model will provide multi-annual funding commitments to facilitate forward planning;

    — the Rebuilding Ireland Action Plan for Housing and Homelessness contains no targets, and no clear funding stream, for the delivery of cost rental housing; and

    — only one small test site for new cost rental housing has been initiated and no other affordable rental scheme is being developed by the Government;
    and calls on the Government to:
    — define cost rental housing as publicly owned housing which is publicly provided on State-owned land where the rents are set on the basis of recovering the cost of the property over the lifetime of a long-term loan;

    — introduce regulations to ensure that any long-term profits, after the repayment of such loans, are retained within the system and reinvested in housing supply;

    direct the new National Regeneration and Development Agency to work with the relevant State agencies to designate Cathal Brugha Barracks in Rathmines, Dublin 6, and Broadstone Garage in Dublin 7 as the first locations and plan for them to be the first of the major cost rental housing developments;

    — plan for the construction of 3,000 new homes at these two locations;

    — design each cost rental scheme to target those individuals who are currently spending more than one-third of their total income on their current rental accommodation;

    — also allocate a percentage of new housing for people on the local authority housing lists and in those cases facilitate the use of a suitable State support - for example, housing assistance payment - to allow them pay the same rent as other tenants;

    — involve disability communities, such as Nimble Spaces, in each development so that it promotes an arts-led participatory design process, meets the needs of many different citizens, enables active citizenship and participation, encourages social inclusion and positive relationships, and incorporates smart design that is good for people and the environment; and

    — immediately identify other publicly-owned sites that would suit the provision of cost rental schemes led by local authorities, approved housing bodies and housing co-operatives.

  8. #82
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    Vote green. Guaranteed to close down barracks that are still operational and required.
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  9. #83
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Vote green. Guaranteed to close down barracks that are still operational and required.
    Actually in this case they are right. Dublin has one too many Barracks at the moment.They moved all the troops out of Mckee but left the Directorates and the school of buns and as a result they are having to bring in troops from all over the 2BDE just to keep the place secure.What should happen is close the Brugha and move the units there to Mckee.That might prove problematic when you consider some of the historical buildings located in CBB but I am sure they could be listed or kept on by DoD and built around. Fair enough back in 2012 when they did the Bks cull the arse had fallen out of the property market but if you had to sell now CBB is as we know in D4,the most expensive real estate in the country.Besides would you want to seel McKee,which is arguably the best Bks we have architecture wise or CBB??

    No.Selling CBB would make money,save money and also improve the lives of the troops who are being dragged from as far away as Donegal to maintain the fantasy that we need to huge Barracks in Dublin
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  11. #84
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    Having 'frontline' units in McKee might help with removing the echo chamber/bubble that has built up around DFHQ to the realities in the rest of the DF.

    Prob won't happen though as there isn't enough room for Ego's

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  13. #85
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    Here's another idea:

    Build mix of 2/3/4 bedroom modern apartments in Cathal Brugha.

    Dept of Defnece funds the build, and hires an external private company to manage the properties..

    Rent out to serving defence forces personnel and family at max of 30% of take home pay.

    Consider it a benefit in kind / renumeration package.

    Personnel and their families are now able to afford livin in capital city and major urban centre yet within 40min commute of DFHQ, DFTC, Baldonnel, McKee, Dublin Duty areas

    potentially removes personnel from FIS as well as serving as an increase in net pay without a pay rise.

  14. #86
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    Or do the same with o'devaney gardens/Bricins and sell off cathal Brugha to pay for it.

    It's not an new concept. Guiness build houses for their workers.

    Major Tech companies are doing it in Dublin already.

  15. #87
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    If the CBB was sold off, the DF would get nothing out it. Other than another Bks closed. as for troops doin duties in the CBB, are troops being transported to Dublin to do Guard in CBB?

  16. #88
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    Troops are being transported from Donegal, Dundalk, and athlone to do duties between McKee and Brugha

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  18. #89
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Troops are being transported from Donegal, Dundalk, and athlone to do duties between McKee and Brugha
    Barracks in Dublin Closed

    1) Richmond ( Inchicore )
    2) Beggars Bush ( Ballsbridge/Shelbourne)
    3) Griffith ( SCR)
    4) Clancy ( Islandbridge)
    5) Collins

    Am I missing any ?
    Clancy had to be pushed onto developers now they are making a mint. Griffith could be bought off and redeveloped immediately, theres little need for a private college, half of collins could go to social housing. The bit of bricins that got given to MacNamara is still empty ..

    This is utter bx from Ryan but is votewinning nothing else.
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  20. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Actually in this case they are right. Dublin has one too many Barracks at the moment.They moved all the troops out of Mckee but left the Directorates and the school of buns and as a result they are having to bring in troops from all over the 2BDE just to keep the place secure.What should happen is close the Brugha and move the units there to Mckee.That might prove problematic when you consider some of the historical buildings located in CBB but I am sure they could be listed or kept on by DoD and built around. Fair enough back in 2012 when they did the Bks cull the arse had fallen out of the property market but if you had to sell now CBB is as we know in D4,the most expensive real estate in the country.Besides would you want to seel McKee,which is arguably the best Bks we have architecture wise or CBB??

    No.Selling CBB would make money,save money and also improve the lives of the troops who are being dragged from as far away as Donegal to maintain the fantasy that we need to huge Barracks in Dublin
    CBB is in D4? When did that happen? The residents of Wrathmines will not be pleased.
    The argument for closing CBB over McKee, or even Baldonnel is a case of 2 bald men fighting over a comb. Better still, to close any barracks in the current environment is a case of selling off the family silver.
    When its gone, its gone.
    Closing does not provide a solution to bussing troops from elsewhere to secure it. It merely sends them elsewhere, as the DF again fail to properly manage staffing, and security arrangements. You need to ask why are there 2 guardrooms in the city (assuming there is one in McKee).
    Kildare closed during the building boom. It lay idle for many years, becoming a target for anti social behaviour, until the local authority took it over.
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  21. #91
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    There are a lot of personnel and units in CBB, moving them would require a lot of land and cost.

    Close McKee and build a single DFHQ building (co-located with DOD Newbridge (if there is room) or in DFTC

  22. #92
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    I am sorry but I am astounded at the silliness of some of the arguments being made against closing CBB here. Let's look at the facts. Two Bks were kept on in Dublin after 2000 and pre 2012(I don't count bricins as a Bks or parkgate).Both are manned(I won't use the word fully as they were not) and both were self sufficient in terms of duties etc. Then in 2012 all the non staff troops are moved out of one Bks and sent to others.Some outside the city.
    Now here is the kicker.Instead of closing the un needed Bks it remains open.Populated by staffers,horses and horsey people and food technicians.IE all people who wont and dont do duties.Solution?
    Drag back troops from all over the place at an increased cost to the taxpayer in terms of fuel costs etc( 28Bn fuel consumption went up by 600%) and take them away from their families for weeks at a time for f**k all extra wages.

    So.To say the DF has nothing to gain is BS. The gain is losing a millstone around it neck and saving money.The troops gain by being back in their own Bks and thus available for duties at home station thus relieving the pressure on those left behind and their families also.

    Also.The troops would not be left securing a closed Bks in CBB was sold off or waiting to be sold.Civvy Security do that job.

    As for Rathmines not being in D4.Correct.My bad.Of course that was what some people focus on and not what I was trying to say. As usual.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  24. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    There are a lot of personnel and units in CBB, moving them would require a lot of land and cost.

    Close McKee and build a single DFHQ building (co-located with DOD Newbridge (if there is room) or in DFTC
    With respect, that's bulls**t.
    The entire office space requirement, transport parking and accomodation for CBB could be contained within the existing footprint of McKee.

    Plenty of land at no cost apart from build cost in McKee. But again not enough room for ego's of GOC, DCOS x2, ACOS and a horse show I the same barracks.

    Heaven forbid senior MA would have to face non-staff troops and actually deal with the major issues in the DF.
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 10th March 2018 at 23:22.

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  26. #94
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    With respect, that's bulls**t.
    The entire office space requirement, transport parking and accomodation for CBB could be contained within the existing footprint of McKee.

    Plenty of land at no cost apart from build cost in McKee. But again not enough room for ego's of GOC, DCOS x2, ACOS and a horse show I the same barracks.

    Heaven forbid senior MA would have to face non-staff troops and actually deal with the major issues in the DF.
    There is land (at zero cost) at McKee that could be built on yes but is there enough for 7 Inf Bn, 2 Cav, 2 CIS, 2 Ord, 2 MP, 2 Tpt, DFSM, DF Archives? you’d be talking at least tens of millions in building costs.

    Of course a new build for DFHQ May cost similar

    DFHQ had no problem cohabiting with 5 Inf Bn and 2 FAR for decades
    Last edited by DeV; 10th March 2018 at 23:57.

  27. #95
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    7 Inf Bn? An inf bn does not occupy much in the way of barrack space. Don't forget McKee used to accomodate one before 2 and 5 were amalgamated. The 12th were split between 2 locations until recently and moved back into what is a small barracks with very little spare space.
    2 Cav consist mostly of the EoH motorcycles, with a handful of other standard vehicles. The space the bikes occupy in the Brugha is a tiny corner. They stack the bikes tight. Since it lost the Panhards it doesn't need as much space any more. The riders may need slightly larger lockers than everyone else to accomodate the motorcycle uniform, but otherwise it is a small unit.
    Consider moving some of the others to Baldonnel.
    I don't understand why DFHQ isn't co-located with the DoD in Newbridge as was the case when they were all in Parkgate. This was back in the day when all Corps directorates were based in DFTC. It seems like someone decided to move to Kildare purely to generate plenty of travel expenses.
    Neither DFSM nor DF Archives need to move to McKee. They can remain in situ as the real world goes on around them, and the band use the square in McKee when needed.

    The question begs though, if you go down the route of closing one barracks in Dublin City Centre, why not close both, and move lock stock and barrel top a purpose built 21st century facility on a greenfield site somewhere? Baldonnel again is an obvious choice. Anyone who did the 10K in 2011 will know just how much green space are inside the blue railings. (Hint, the perimiter is 10km long, and very little of that is runway footprint.) You could accomodate everyone currently in McKee and Cathal Brugha Barracks west of the current buildings, and remain inside the blue railings (assuming the Air Corps didn't want to share)..
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  28. #96
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    Nothing better then army people arguing over where we should cut next. DOD must love us. At this rate, why not move everyone to the curragh. Have no needs for Bdes just 2 bn. No DFHQ, sure DOD can do that. Who really wants a reserve, no one. Sure we would make great savings. Then while we are at, let’s get rid of all pensions, waste of money any way. Actually why don’t we close baldonnel while we are at it. In reality it just trains pilots for Ryanair, it has a few held, but they don’t do all that much any way. We could privatize the gardai heli any way.
    Last edited by jack08; 11th March 2018 at 10:13.

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  30. #97
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    Each of those units needs (can be shared buildings and facilities of course) need:

    Office Accomodiation for a significant number of personnel
    Sleeping Accomodiation for a significant number of people
    Car parking for significant numbers of civvy and military vehicles
    Garages/tech bays
    Stores
    Dining Hall
    Officers, NCOs and Privates Mess
    Armouries
    Squares

    DFHQ has always been always been spread out over multiple locations. I agree it all should have been centralised in one location with DoD.

    Have a look on google maps at the size of CBB, McKee and Baldonnel.

    I’m not saying it’s impossible or that every building is being occupied to the max but wherever you go you are going to have to build/renovate a lot of physical infrastructure and it is not going to be cheap.

    We regard to Baldonnel there is land there but unless you are going to obstruct the runways most of it is unusable unless you purchase more private land.

    Remember we are talking (in CBB’s case) about probably in the top 2 (personnel wise) barracks in the country. It isn’t a Coy/Bn minus location.

    Nothing is impossible if you have a sufficient budget (and in the case of moving CBB it would likely be in the hundreds of millions).

    There would be implications of removing troops from the city in the context of conventional, ATCP and ATCA.

    To me, closing McKee makes most sense.

  31. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack08 View Post
    Nothing better then army people arguing over where we should cut next. DOD must love us. At this rate, why not move everyone to the curragh. Have no needs for Bdes just 2 bn. No DFHQ, sure DOD can do that. Who really wants a reserve, no one. Sure we would make great savings. Then while we are at, let’s get rid of all pensions, waste of money any way.
    Yes but also think about efficiency

    DFHQ is currently spread between McKee, Newbridge and the Curragh. Afaik yes all the DFHQ Dublin elements are now centralised in McKee (it used to be spread around about 5 locations in Dublin). Is that efficient?

  32. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Each of those units needs (can be shared buildings and facilities of course) need:

    Office Accomodiation for a significant number of personnel
    Sleeping Accomodiation for a significant number of people
    Car parking for significant numbers of civvy and military vehicles
    Garages/tech bays
    Stores
    Dining Hall
    Officers, NCOs and Privates Mess
    Armouries
    Squares

    DFHQ has always been always been spread out over multiple locations. I agree it all should have been centralised in one location with DoD.

    Have a look on google maps at the size of CBB, McKee and Baldonnel.

    I’m not saying it’s impossible or that every building is being occupied to the max but wherever you go you are going to have to build/renovate a lot of physical infrastructure and it is not going to be cheap.

    We regard to Baldonnel there is land there but unless you are going to obstruct the runways most of it is unusable unless you purchase more private land.

    Remember we are talking (in CBB’s case) about probably in the top 2 (personnel wise) barracks in the country. It isn’t a Coy/Bn minus location.

    Nothing is impossible if you have a sufficient budget (and in the case of moving CBB it would likely be in the hundreds of millions).

    There would be implications of removing troops from the city in the context of conventional, ATCP and ATCA.

    To me, closing McKee makes most sense.
    I don't need to look at google maps. I have been to all 3 facilities. I know what space they have, and what of it is being used efficiently. There is plenty of unused space that is not part of runway footprint at the western end of Baldonnel.
    Is it better to be stuck maintaining half empty aged unsuitable buildings in multiple locations, or instead have purpose built buildings?
    Many barracks do not have vehicle maintenance bays or Tech bays. Co-locate in a facility that already has one and you are sorted.
    If you are going to close one, for whatever reason, I do not see why the same reason could not justify closing both.

    The elephant in the room though is Gormanstown. We still use a portion of it. The Air Corps moved out years ago. The runway was decomissioned. What about the rest of the space that the DoD still own?
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  33. #100
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    I don't need to look at google maps. I have been to all 3 facilities. I know what space they have, and what of it is being used efficiently. There is plenty of unused space that is not part of runway footprint at the western end of Baldonnel
    i recommend you do, have a look zoom in and go 3D and you can follow most of the fence. Bearing in mind you can’t build on the runway approaches. I was surprised how little space there is.


    Is it better to be stuck maintaining half empty aged unsuitable buildings in multiple locations, or instead have purpose built buildings?
    we both know the answer to that

    Many barracks do not have vehicle maintenance bays or Tech bays. Co-locate in a facility that already has one and you are sorted.
    remember CBB houses Tpt Gp and their workshops (it isn’t huge but it is a necessary facility). Not saying it couldn’t be combined with an existing one and made more efficient but it’s a factor

    If you are going to close one, for whatever reason, I do not see why the same reason could not justify closing both.
    one houses a fair few operational units and personnel. Doubt there are the financial resources to do both at the same time

    The elephant in the room though is Gormanstown. We still use a portion of it. The Air Corps moved out years ago. The runway was decomissioned. What about the rest of the space that the DoD still own?
    +1

    A lot of space there, wouldn’t make sense to put DFHQ there but replacement for CBB maybe

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