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Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Part 2)

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  • #91
    There are a lot of personnel and units in CBB, moving them would require a lot of land and cost.

    Close McKee and build a single DFHQ building (co-located with DOD Newbridge (if there is room) or in DFTC

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    • #92
      I am sorry but I am astounded at the silliness of some of the arguments being made against closing CBB here. Let's look at the facts. Two Bks were kept on in Dublin after 2000 and pre 2012(I don't count bricins as a Bks or parkgate).Both are manned(I won't use the word fully as they were not) and both were self sufficient in terms of duties etc. Then in 2012 all the non staff troops are moved out of one Bks and sent to others.Some outside the city.
      Now here is the kicker.Instead of closing the un needed Bks it remains open.Populated by staffers,horses and horsey people and food technicians.IE all people who wont and dont do duties.Solution?
      Drag back troops from all over the place at an increased cost to the taxpayer in terms of fuel costs etc( 28Bn fuel consumption went up by 600%) and take them away from their families for weeks at a time for f**k all extra wages.

      So.To say the DF has nothing to gain is BS. The gain is losing a millstone around it neck and saving money.The troops gain by being back in their own Bks and thus available for duties at home station thus relieving the pressure on those left behind and their families also.

      Also.The troops would not be left securing a closed Bks in CBB was sold off or waiting to be sold.Civvy Security do that job.

      As for Rathmines not being in D4.Correct.My bad.Of course that was what some people focus on and not what I was trying to say. As usual.
      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by DeV View Post
        There are a lot of personnel and units in CBB, moving them would require a lot of land and cost.

        Close McKee and build a single DFHQ building (co-located with DOD Newbridge (if there is room) or in DFTC
        With respect, that's bulls**t.
        The entire office space requirement, transport parking and accomodation for CBB could be contained within the existing footprint of McKee.

        Plenty of land at no cost apart from build cost in McKee. But again not enough room for ego's of GOC, DCOS x2, ACOS and a horse show I the same barracks.

        Heaven forbid senior MA would have to face non-staff troops and actually deal with the major issues in the DF.
        Last edited by TangoSierra; 11 March 2018, 00:22.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
          With respect, that's bulls**t.
          The entire office space requirement, transport parking and accomodation for CBB could be contained within the existing footprint of McKee.

          Plenty of land at no cost apart from build cost in McKee. But again not enough room for ego's of GOC, DCOS x2, ACOS and a horse show I the same barracks.

          Heaven forbid senior MA would have to face non-staff troops and actually deal with the major issues in the DF.
          There is land (at zero cost) at McKee that could be built on yes but is there enough for 7 Inf Bn, 2 Cav, 2 CIS, 2 Ord, 2 MP, 2 Tpt, DFSM, DF Archives? you’d be talking at least tens of millions in building costs.

          Of course a new build for DFHQ May cost similar

          DFHQ had no problem cohabiting with 5 Inf Bn and 2 FAR for decades
          Last edited by DeV; 11 March 2018, 00:57.

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          • #95
            7 Inf Bn? An inf bn does not occupy much in the way of barrack space. Don't forget McKee used to accomodate one before 2 and 5 were amalgamated. The 12th were split between 2 locations until recently and moved back into what is a small barracks with very little spare space.
            2 Cav consist mostly of the EoH motorcycles, with a handful of other standard vehicles. The space the bikes occupy in the Brugha is a tiny corner. They stack the bikes tight. Since it lost the Panhards it doesn't need as much space any more. The riders may need slightly larger lockers than everyone else to accomodate the motorcycle uniform, but otherwise it is a small unit.
            Consider moving some of the others to Baldonnel.
            I don't understand why DFHQ isn't co-located with the DoD in Newbridge as was the case when they were all in Parkgate. This was back in the day when all Corps directorates were based in DFTC. It seems like someone decided to move to Kildare purely to generate plenty of travel expenses.
            Neither DFSM nor DF Archives need to move to McKee. They can remain in situ as the real world goes on around them, and the band use the square in McKee when needed.

            The question begs though, if you go down the route of closing one barracks in Dublin City Centre, why not close both, and move lock stock and barrel top a purpose built 21st century facility on a greenfield site somewhere? Baldonnel again is an obvious choice. Anyone who did the 10K in 2011 will know just how much green space are inside the blue railings. (Hint, the perimiter is 10km long, and very little of that is runway footprint.) You could accomodate everyone currently in McKee and Cathal Brugha Barracks west of the current buildings, and remain inside the blue railings (assuming the Air Corps didn't want to share)..
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

            Comment


            • #96
              Nothing better then army people arguing over where we should cut next. DOD must love us. At this rate, why not move everyone to the curragh. Have no needs for Bdes just 2 bn. No DFHQ, sure DOD can do that. Who really wants a reserve, no one. Sure we would make great savings. Then while we are at, let’s get rid of all pensions, waste of money any way. Actually why don’t we close baldonnel while we are at it. In reality it just trains pilots for Ryanair, it has a few held, but they don’t do all that much any way. We could privatize the gardai heli any way.
              Last edited by jack08; 11 March 2018, 11:13.

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              • #97
                Each of those units needs (can be shared buildings and facilities of course) need:

                Office Accomodiation for a significant number of personnel
                Sleeping Accomodiation for a significant number of people
                Car parking for significant numbers of civvy and military vehicles
                Garages/tech bays
                Stores
                Dining Hall
                Officers, NCOs and Privates Mess
                Armouries
                Squares

                DFHQ has always been always been spread out over multiple locations. I agree it all should have been centralised in one location with DoD.

                Have a look on google maps at the size of CBB, McKee and Baldonnel.

                I’m not saying it’s impossible or that every building is being occupied to the max but wherever you go you are going to have to build/renovate a lot of physical infrastructure and it is not going to be cheap.

                We regard to Baldonnel there is land there but unless you are going to obstruct the runways most of it is unusable unless you purchase more private land.

                Remember we are talking (in CBB’s case) about probably in the top 2 (personnel wise) barracks in the country. It isn’t a Coy/Bn minus location.

                Nothing is impossible if you have a sufficient budget (and in the case of moving CBB it would likely be in the hundreds of millions).

                There would be implications of removing troops from the city in the context of conventional, ATCP and ATCA.

                To me, closing McKee makes most sense.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by jack08 View Post
                  Nothing better then army people arguing over where we should cut next. DOD must love us. At this rate, why not move everyone to the curragh. Have no needs for Bdes just 2 bn. No DFHQ, sure DOD can do that. Who really wants a reserve, no one. Sure we would make great savings. Then while we are at, let’s get rid of all pensions, waste of money any way.
                  Yes but also think about efficiency

                  DFHQ is currently spread between McKee, Newbridge and the Curragh. Afaik yes all the DFHQ Dublin elements are now centralised in McKee (it used to be spread around about 5 locations in Dublin). Is that efficient?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    Each of those units needs (can be shared buildings and facilities of course) need:

                    Office Accomodiation for a significant number of personnel
                    Sleeping Accomodiation for a significant number of people
                    Car parking for significant numbers of civvy and military vehicles
                    Garages/tech bays
                    Stores
                    Dining Hall
                    Officers, NCOs and Privates Mess
                    Armouries
                    Squares

                    DFHQ has always been always been spread out over multiple locations. I agree it all should have been centralised in one location with DoD.

                    Have a look on google maps at the size of CBB, McKee and Baldonnel.

                    I’m not saying it’s impossible or that every building is being occupied to the max but wherever you go you are going to have to build/renovate a lot of physical infrastructure and it is not going to be cheap.

                    We regard to Baldonnel there is land there but unless you are going to obstruct the runways most of it is unusable unless you purchase more private land.

                    Remember we are talking (in CBB’s case) about probably in the top 2 (personnel wise) barracks in the country. It isn’t a Coy/Bn minus location.

                    Nothing is impossible if you have a sufficient budget (and in the case of moving CBB it would likely be in the hundreds of millions).

                    There would be implications of removing troops from the city in the context of conventional, ATCP and ATCA.

                    To me, closing McKee makes most sense.
                    I don't need to look at google maps. I have been to all 3 facilities. I know what space they have, and what of it is being used efficiently. There is plenty of unused space that is not part of runway footprint at the western end of Baldonnel.
                    Is it better to be stuck maintaining half empty aged unsuitable buildings in multiple locations, or instead have purpose built buildings?
                    Many barracks do not have vehicle maintenance bays or Tech bays. Co-locate in a facility that already has one and you are sorted.
                    If you are going to close one, for whatever reason, I do not see why the same reason could not justify closing both.

                    The elephant in the room though is Gormanstown. We still use a portion of it. The Air Corps moved out years ago. The runway was decomissioned. What about the rest of the space that the DoD still own?
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmitĂ­ View Post
                      I don't need to look at google maps. I have been to all 3 facilities. I know what space they have, and what of it is being used efficiently. There is plenty of unused space that is not part of runway footprint at the western end of Baldonnel
                      i recommend you do, have a look zoom in and go 3D and you can follow most of the fence. Bearing in mind you can’t build on the runway approaches. I was surprised how little space there is.


                      Is it better to be stuck maintaining half empty aged unsuitable buildings in multiple locations, or instead have purpose built buildings?
                      we both know the answer to that

                      Many barracks do not have vehicle maintenance bays or Tech bays. Co-locate in a facility that already has one and you are sorted.
                      remember CBB houses Tpt Gp and their workshops (it isn’t huge but it is a necessary facility). Not saying it couldn’t be combined with an existing one and made more efficient but it’s a factor

                      If you are going to close one, for whatever reason, I do not see why the same reason could not justify closing both.
                      one houses a fair few operational units and personnel. Doubt there are the financial resources to do both at the same time

                      The elephant in the room though is Gormanstown. We still use a portion of it. The Air Corps moved out years ago. The runway was decomissioned. What about the rest of the space that the DoD still own?
                      +1

                      A lot of space there, wouldn’t make sense to put DFHQ there but replacement for CBB maybe

                      Comment


                      • why does efficiency mean closing. What is the add value? But I can tell you now. The idea of spending millions on new Bks in Bal, is crazy. Do you honestly think, that you would get a purpose built Bks, before you sell of McKee and CBB? No. So you sell of both Bks, for less than they should. That money would then be put back in a big pot. Then over a number of years, through endless planning applications etc, you end up with nothing. 2 Cav, would get housed in the DFTC, as a stop gap measure. Then why would you build something for them. Same for CIS. Where would you put the Bde Hq. You would disband it. No we are down to a one bde+ structure. Great. All in the name of alleged efficiency.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jack08 View Post
                          why does efficiency mean closing. What is the add value? But I can tell you now. The idea of spending millions on new Bks in Bal, is crazy. Do you honestly think, that you would get a purpose built Bks, before you sell of McKee and CBB? No. So you sell of both Bks, for less than they should. That money would then be put back in a big pot. Then over a number of years, through endless planning applications etc, you end up with nothing. 2 Cav, would get housed in the DFTC, as a stop gap measure. Then why would you build something for them. Same for CIS. Where would you put the Bde Hq. You would disband it. No we are down to a one bde+ structure. Great. All in the name of alleged efficiency.
                          Which is why I say CBB should stay where it is

                          DFHQ currently has:
                          - Newbridge (COS, FOI, Press Office)
                          - DFTC (An Cosantoir, Info officer)
                          - McKee (D CIS, D Engr, D Ord, D Tpt, J7, HCF, DFAA, DFHQ CIS Coy)
                          - CBB (Mil Archives)


                          That’s from Military.ie

                          Is that efficiency?

                          Comment


                          • Noting the poll results, is Tralee closed yet? If not why not?
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • I believe, there is more in McKee then that. Of course, it was the unrealistic reorg that has caused all these problems. You can solve a lot of these problems by moving a unit back to McKee, ie the 2 ar and of course I belive that Gormanston camp should become the recruit training center for all recruits in the DF, with an establishment, something like what the USMC have. You could even call it a school if you want. I firmly believe, that the idea of closing Bks is not the way forward. i believe that, when we cut, we just get cut. And being the best at cutting ourselves has not helped us in any way.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jack08 View Post
                                I believe, there is more in McKee then that. Of course, it was the unrealistic reorg that has caused all these problems. You can solve a lot of these problems by moving a unit back to McKee, ie the 2 ar and of course I belive that Gormanston camp should become the recruit training center for all recruits in the DF, with an establishment, something like what the USMC have. You could even call it a school if you want. I firmly believe, that the idea of closing Bks is not the way forward. i believe that, when we cut, we just get cut. And being the best at cutting ourselves has not helped us in any way.
                                I have read all your posts on this and from what I can see your argument is basically "lets not close another Bks because if we do it will lead to more downsizing".That it? Yeah?
                                Now.Can I ask what equates moving of personnel from one Bks that's not needed, to another that is virtually empty but yet is sucking in manpower and funds like nobodies business, with redundancies and cuts??
                                Answer?

                                Nothing at all.

                                Refill McKee.Now you have one less set of duties securing one location,saving resources and lessening the burden on troops and their families. Move the horsey crowd to the DFTC.They were there before in part and the Curragh is the home of the Irish Horse is it not? Leave Mil archives where they are.Let's face it there is no moving then after the money that was spent on the new building. With Horsey set moved to the DFTC you have plenty of room for expansion in Mckee.

                                Now.Other than nostalgia and paranoia can anybody justify why Dublin needs two huge Bks.Especially when one is virtually empty and when you could make a few quid by selling the other and also SAVE money on overheads into the bargain???
                                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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