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Arktis made the original ones for the Wing. The current trials item is made by Seyntex.
I don't think that's really fair comment. Things have moved on and what seemed like a good idea then is not necessarily a good idea now.
Back when the DPM's came out the word IED wasn't even a thing. Now CIED is a major consideration. Nobody gave a fiddlers about "Flash effect" outside of the NS(AC?). Now FR properties are De Riguer in modern soldiers combat uniforms. Behind armour effects were not considered either when it came to what we wore under CBA nor was heat illness, as we wore CBA rarely.
Now we wear it for virtually everything.
Also as regards to the Barrack Jkt and smock. The smock would have been grand if officers hadn't insisted in having Ceremonial parades and inspections in them and when they did insisting that they be "good" IE Unfaded/new. Smocks fade and wear out at a faster rate due to their construction and primary mode of use.The Barrack Jkt was introduced as unless you nuke it it hardly fades and is a low maintenance garment for everyday use. It also reduces the wear out time on the Smocks thus saving Johnny taxpayer money.
So in short the uniform IS developing.Just not the a nearly 22 year old study group imagined at the time.We now have a modern uniform comparable with the best out there.A little dated in design in some areas(Smock/trouser/Shirt) but that is being dealt with. My only hope is that in doing so functionality and appearance win out over cost as nobody wants a return to the "elvis" collar days.
With what you said about shirts APOD, do you think they have no place ahead of UBACs in a tactical scenario? Even if they were proper field orientated ones like clawgear or Arktis designed ones?
With what you said about shirts APOD, do you think they have no place ahead of UBACs in a tactical scenario? Even if they were proper field orientated ones like clawgear or Arktis designed ones?
The current shirts definitely aren’t suitable
I suppose the question is more do we need (a) a tactical or redesigned shirt, or (b) just use UBACS and layer with suitable base layer(s) or mid layers (eg “fleece†that is actually a very lightweight Norge) as required.
With what you said about shirts APOD, do you think they have no place ahead of UBACs in a tactical scenario? Even if they were proper field orientated ones like clawgear or Arktis designed ones?
Tactical scenario summer: UBACS during the day. T-shirt under at night. Waterproof jacket carried and worn if necessary.Norgie carried and worn when static giving UBACS a chance to dry.
Tactical scenario spring/autumn: UBACS during the day. Smock worn at night.Norgie worn under smock and over baselayer when static giving UBACS a chance to dry.
Tactical scenario winter: UBACS during the day with long sleeve t-shirt underneath.Smock worn over at night. Snugpak worn under smock and over baselayer when static allowing UBACS to dry
I used never use a shirt on the ground except during the summer in Lieu of smock. Now I see no use for them as we have UBACS.No good with GSBA.Shite wicking abilities and no warmth to weight ratio.
PS: Only a spanner would try and wear a norgie under a UBACS.The UBACS are too tight fitting due to their design. Norgies are worn under DPM shirts or smocks(or if you are RDF over the DPM shirt)
"Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.
Not going to be a plate carrier.Report doesn't recommend it. Procurement board not convened yet. Report still being reviewed by the general staff.
As for the scouts.Talking to the lads the other day who were issued them for the 113th. No maintenance items issued with them. Was that an oversight? Did ye get anything with yours? If not what have ye being using to maintain them?
And as for the Goretex membrane in them. It's the summer weight(extended comfort) GTX not the old style insulated version. Hope ye got good socks for the winter months!! http://www.joint-forces.com/products...s-for-footwear
So what have they decided to go with and who made this decision?
We’ve just been brushing off heavy dirt and using dubbing from time to time. Other than that there’s fec all you can do and they all lol different shades of brown now 🤷ðŸ¼*♂ï¸
Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face
So what have they decided to go with and who made this decision?
We’ve just been brushing off heavy dirt and using dubbing from time to time. Other than that there’s fec all you can do and they all lol different shades of brown now 🤷ðŸ¼*♂ï¸
No decision has been made yet.The General staff have yet to appoint the procurement board AFAIK. The report makes recommendations based on various factors.A LOT of effort was put into the report and it is well worth a read BTW.
Dubbing on nubuck boots?They are fecked so.May as well not have put a breathable lining in as dubbing is an animal fat wax which will act like a barrier. Been doing a bit of research. Apparently the best thing to use is a suede brush to scrub of the finer dirt.A suede eraser to get rid of heavy dirt spots,a cleaner and then a proofer.
"Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.
Tactical scenario summer: UBACS during the day. T-shirt under at night. Waterproof jacket carried and worn if necessary.Norgie carried and worn when static giving UBACS a chance to dry.
Tactical scenario spring/autumn: UBACS during the day. Smock worn at night.Norgie worn under smock and over baselayer when static giving UBACS a chance to dry.
Tactical scenario winter: UBACS during the day with long sleeve t-shirt underneath.Smock worn over at night. Snugpak worn under smock and over baselayer when static allowing UBACS to dry
I used never use a shirt on the ground except during the summer in Lieu of smock. Now I see no use for them as we have UBACS.No good with GSBA.Shite wicking abilities and no warmth to weight ratio.
PS: Only a spanner would try and wear a norgie under a UBACS.The UBACS are too tight fitting due to their design. Norgies are worn under DPM shirts or smocks(or if you are RDF over the DPM shirt)
So are they sufficient layers for all climates? Jungle? Arctic?
How can an item that was introduced to save money be a waste of money? I would love to know your logic on this.
It is a waste of money from a practical, useful point of view. As a garment it is not windproof enough, provides little insulation and is not waterproof enough. We already have garments that fulfill these needs perfectly well for both tactical and barrack use (smock, norgie/snugpak and wets).
It has feck all ability to store any items bar a mobile phone.
In effect it is a piece of corporate identity wear perfectly suited for photo-ops and seniors walking from offices to mess. Other than that has no practical military use.
As Dev has said, an updated (or the old) wooly jumper would have been just as suitable.
Seriously I think you are only looking at this from an RDF perspective where you are only entitled to one smock and that smock is "technically" all you need(I know ye need two BTW).
I am not in the RDF and have served my time in the PDF. You are not the only PDF member on the board, don't condescend others by assuming all are RDF or interested civvies.
Whereas back in day PDF troops in line units would need three(only scaled for two). 1 x "Good" Parade smock. 1x Day to day smock and 1x Field/tactical smock. As you replaced one the newest one became the Parade smock and the oldest the Tactical et etc.
That practice has gone on for centuries in armies all over the world, not just the DF. And as you said, it's primarily due to senior officers wanting parades to appear a certain way and imposing restrictions an items not meant for parades. That is the big issue, issuing poorly thought out garments to re-inforce that attitude is not a remedy.
An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost.Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
So are they sufficient layers for all climates? Jungle? Arctic?
No of course not.If you operate in the Arctic the emphasis is on not sweating(sweat freezes when static) so you strip down to just a wicking baselayer with a smock when mobile and layer up when static.
UBACS is perfect for Jungle Ops. Our Officers use them in the DRC with no issues. I only wish we had them when I was in Liberia. You only need two changes in the Jungle one on you and a dry layer in your Bergen for sleeping in .Usually a long sleeve wicking baselayer.
"Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.
It is a waste of money from a practical, useful point of view. As a garment it is not windproof enough, provides little insulation and is not waterproof enough. We already have garments that fulfill these needs perfectly well for both tactical and barrack use (smock, norgie/snugpak and wets)
.
Seriously?That's your argument? It is not intended to be worn tactically first off ,it is intended to be worn for routine Barracks parades and going from place to place in the Barracks NOT acting as a replacement for all our other items of kit.If the rain is torrential I will wear my wets.If I get caught in a shower walking to the HQ block my Bk jkt is fine.if the weather is really cold I can wear my Norgie under it.As for being practical and useful it is both.It keeps my smocks from wearing out quicker than intended and is quick to don and
doff.
It has feck all ability to store any items bar a mobile phone.
Really? I can store carkeys,pens, a phone and even a map in it if necessary as it has four pockets which is plenty for everyday use.
In effect it is a piece of corporate identity wear perfectly suited for photo-ops and seniors walking from offices to mess. Other than that has no practical military use.
As Dev has said, an updated (or the old) wooly jumper would have been just as suitable.
Bollocks. Oh and a jumper would still require a smock or wets as it has zero waterproof qualities when worn in the rain.Thanks but I prefer not getting soaked when on parade in the morning and having to change out five minutes later.
I am not in the RDF and have served my time in the PDF. You are not the only PDF member on the board, don't condescend others by assuming all are RDF or interested civvies.
Sorry but where exactly did I condescend you? I don't have a crystal ball and you never told me you were ex PDF.This forum is RDF top heavy so it was a natural assumption.
That practice has gone on for centuries in armies all over the world, not just the DF. And as you said, it's primarily due to senior officers wanting parades to appear a certain way and imposing restrictions an items not meant for parades. That is the big issue, issuing poorly thought out garments to re-inforce that attitude is not a remedy.
Perhaps but you ain't gonna change the Seniors attitude any time soon.
Just out of curiosity how long are you out of the PDF?
"Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.
UBACS is perfect for Jungle Ops. Our Officers use them in the DRC with no issues.
LOL. I dont think it matters a damn what you wear when you are driving in an air conditioned vehicle from your air conditioned accommodation to your air conditioned workplace and back again.
Irelands contribution to MONUSCO couldnt be further from "jungle ops". Anyone who has served there who isn't a walter mitty will tell you that.
.Seriously?That's your argument? It is not intended to be worn tactically first off
That's my entire point...now you've got it!!
The whole idea of dpm introduction was one standard uniform that was suitable for all types of wear.....both barrack days and tactical use.
Introducing items that are only for one or the other just defeats the original intention.
An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost.Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
That's my entire point...now you've got it!!
The whole idea of dpm introduction was one standard uniform that was suitable for all types of wear.....both barrack days and tactical use.
Introducing items that are only for one or the other just defeats the original intention.
I see your point, however.. You cannot be walking around a barracks doing your daily routine in smock and heavy boots. Most NCO's work from an office day to day running the Unit so you require different dress. We're not the only army who do this either.
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