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Thread: Soldier 2017

  1. #401
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    Never been issued "operational" trousers in my whole career.... Poxy winter bottoms every time, even on a summer trip to the leb probably never see those either

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggles View Post
    Never been issued "operational" trousers in my whole career.... Poxy winter bottoms every time, even on a summer trip to the leb probably never see those either
    If you have been issued any item of DPM kit since 2011 it has "operational" on the label.The standard trousers up to now were labeled "winter" but if you go back to the advent of DPMs in the DF what is now the "winter" trousers was once the "summer" trousers(Anybody remember the original Winter trousers with the non breathable membrane/liner seat and knees?).

    Once the DF got rid of the original "winter"trousers the "Tropical" trousers, which first saw use in Timor with the Wing, became the DeFacto summer trousers and were usually only issued for overseas use. In 2011 they were renamed "Operational trousers summer" officially.

    My last trip to the Leb was a summer one and we were only issued two of these.Despite being ordered to bring four full sets of shirt and trousers. Thankfully I still had a few fairly good trousers from a previous trip and they became my patrol dress along with the newly issued UBACS and the new trousers were kept for good wear.

    Shoot forward to 2017/8. The days of two different weights of cloth for "Winter" and "summer" is gone. The new trousers/smock and shirt all come in an Intermediate weight cloth halfway between the old national issue and overseas issue kit.So now we will only have one type of trouser going forward.Albeit in male and female variants.
    So in short no.You won't see the old summer trousers on issue anymore.

    Speaking of kit changes I had a good look at the new smock/UBACS and waterproof Jacket today.Some good points.Some bad.

    New Smock sizes are completely different to the old sizes. Smock has a fleece lined mandarin collar so it will look ridiculous when worn folded down when hood is detached. Hood is held on with three old style buttons as opposed to the Canadian slotted style we are used to so loosing buttons again becomes an issue. Inner zipped pocket has moved down to below the waist drawcord on the left. Drawcords are now inside the waist.Gonna be super comfortable when worn with kit pushing the toggles into you ribs Storm cuffs now have a single piece of elastic shockcord instead of the current elasticated knitted cuffs. Upper sleeve pockets are a good size and have a black piece of web material sewn onto the inside back of each pocket and stitched into two loops. Ideal for Cyalumes. Too big for pens etc Plenty of places to carry pens though.Two slots at the top of each upper sleeve pocket and an open top double pen pocket on the lower left sleeve. FFD pocket on the lower right sleeve.

    Waterproof jacket is shorter than the old design.Lower sleeves have the exact same pocket design as on the new smock. Internal waist drawcord and zipped lower outer pockets. Material is a PU/PA mix.Sadly not PTFE(Goretex)

    New UBACS has an offset neck zip.Same design as the new Belgian one which kinda makes sense seeing as the are both made in the same factory. Design introduced to discourage people from going around with the zip undone.Theory being that the collar is supposed to be kept zipped to protect the neck from flame etc.
    Last edited by apod; 13th May 2019 at 15:15.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  4. #403
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    I feel like I know the answer, apod, but how do these uniforms get approved? Are there people looking at international uniforms/best practices? Or is it just a bunch of officers going "how cheap can it be made while still looking good on parade?"
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

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  6. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    I feel like I know the answer, apod, but how do these uniforms get approved? Are there people looking at international uniforms/best practices? Or is it just a bunch of officers going "how cheap can it be made while still looking good on parade?"
    A combination of the above. The DF Clothing Committee looks at all the gucci stuff from abroad, however its aspirations soon come plumetting back to earth with the limited clothing budget.

    Just remember that in 2016, the creative or "arts" sector shook the government for millions for interpretive dance to commemorate the rising. The DF on the other hand were "awarded" a medal but told to fund it from their existing clothing budget.

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  8. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by northie View Post
    A combination of the above. The DF Clothing Committee looks at all the gucci stuff from abroad, however its aspirations soon come plumetting back to earth with the limited clothing budget.

    Just remember that in 2016, the creative or "arts" sector shook the government for millions for interpretive dance to commemorate the rising. The DF on the other hand were "awarded" a medal but told to fund it from their existing clothing budget.
    FFS...

    Can't really say much more.
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

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  10. #406
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    Did other organisations (e.g. Civil Defence, Fire Service) have to fund their 1916 medals from their existing clothing budgets?

  11. #407
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    Civil Defence come under DoD don't they?
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  12. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    Civil Defence come under DoD don't they?
    Check out the recent news over PHECC regulations and CD provided first aid cover... when it suits DoD

  13. #409
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Another couple of months on. has ANYBODY seen someone or been issued themselves any of the new type kit?
    A few people,and I mean a few,in my unit have the new trousers and only 2-3 people across my entire unit have the new shirt(which is gank) but I have yet to see anyone wearing the new smock or wets.

    PS: Anyone been issued the new socks yet? They might cut down on people spending mad money on Bridgedales.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  14. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Another couple of months on. has ANYBODY seen someone or been issued themselves any of the new type kit?
    A few people,and I mean a few,in my unit have the new trousers and only 2-3 people across my entire unit have the new shirt(which is gank) but I have yet to see anyone wearing the new smock or wets.

    PS: Anyone been issued the new socks yet? They might cut down on people spending mad money on Bridgedales.
    Have seen a few RDF with them... look tactical

  15. #411
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    The new shirts look awful.

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  17. #412
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    At least if they put the same pockets on both sleeves they would be symmetrical. As it is they just look,Weird.
    Of course that's what happens when the majority panders to the minority.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  18. #413
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    New shirts look shocking.
    One type of trousers for all climates is ridiculous. They've three layers of material in them, far too heavy for summer trips.
    Newest type UBACS with offset zip is another absurd idea. Grand if you are going to wear GSBA 24/7 but that doesn't happen obviously. Issued two per person now which is a minimum needed for overseas.
    2018 t-shirts don't fit anyone.
    Coolmax socks are ok but almost knee-high, need to be shorter like the old trekker socks.
    The new kit bag is great.
    Scout boots are decent, tight fit so go a size up. Would make a very good Op boot to replace the black Hiaxs for home and for winter trips overseas but they're too heavy for summer trips. Light op desert boots need to return for overseas in hot climates.

    I notice the brown Hiax's didn't last too long with the French, back to wearing desert boots.

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  20. #414
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    New shirts look shocking.
    +1.

    One type of trousers for all climates is ridiculous. They've three layers of material in them, far too heavy for summer trips.
    Yeah,but the new material is way lighter.
    Newest type UBACS with offset zip is another absurd idea. Grand if you are going to wear GSBA 24/7 but that doesn't happen obviously. Issued two per person now which is a minimum needed for overseas.
    Blame the Body armour board.They recommended them in their report.

    2018 t-shirts don't fit anyone.
    +1. Sizes are all off.
    Coolmax socks are ok but almost knee-high, need to be shorter like the old trekker socks.
    Haven't seen them yet but they were supposed to be an olive green version of the British army Hot weather sock(Which are great kit if you can get over the colour)

    The new kit bag is great.
    So I am led to believe.I bought the black,british army one for going on hols.Slightly bigger(110L as opposed to 90L) and I couldn't fault it.
    Scout boots are decent, tight fit so go a size up. Would make a very good Op boot to replace the black Hiaxs for home and for winter trips overseas but they're too heavy for summer trips. Light op desert boots need to return for overseas in hot climates.
    They are replacing the Black Haix. Are they still too hot even with the Extended comfort Goretex? Isn't that stuff supposed to keep your feet cool as well as dry?
    I notice the brown Hiax's didn't last too long with the French, back to wearing desert boots.
    They are issued both.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  21. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Yeah,but the new material is way lighter.
    Its still three layers of material compared to one for summer trousers.

    They are replacing the Black Haix. Are they still too hot even with the Extended comfort Goretex? Isn't that stuff supposed to keep your feet cool as well as dry?
    I don't think a replacement has been selected yet but probably will be the Scout.
    All Gore-tex types reduce ventilation. As you said, Gore-tex is designed to keep your feet dry but still breath, but in extremely hot climates where there is no water to keep out, it has the opposite effect and keeps your feet wet with sweat.

    They are issued both.
    And so should we. Most seem to be wearing (non-Gore-tex) desert Lowa's.

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  23. #416
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Its still three layers of material compared to one for summer trousers.
    Sorry but where are you getting three layers from? The knees and seat of the current trousers are double lined and that's it and since the second issue of the Tropical(Now summer) trousers so have they.Only the first issue had a single layer and that was nineteen years ago.
    The latest trousers,shirt and smock are an intermediate weight fabric. Midway between the current Summer and winter weights.
    I don't think a replacement has been selected yet but probably will be the Scout.
    It has. 18,500 pairs of them.Tender worded to exact specs of that model.

    All Gore-tex types reduce ventilation. As you said, Gore-tex is designed to keep your feet dry but still breath, but in extremely hot climates where there is no water to keep out, it has the opposite effect and keeps your feet wet with sweat.
    Well I guess WL Gore need to fire their scientists 'cos they must be telling porky pies.

    https://www.joint-forces.com/product...s-for-footwear
    https://www.gore-workwear.co.uk/tech...mfort-footwear
    And so should we. Most seem to be wearing (non-Gore-tex) desert Lowa's.
    Yeah. In an ideal world.Not exactly comparing like with like though is it RE the Irish and French Clothing budgets.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  24. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Sorry but where are you getting three layers from? The knees and seat of the current trousers are double lined and that's it and since the second issue of the Tropical(Now summer) trousers so have they.Only the first issue had a single layer and that was nineteen years ago.
    The latest trousers,shirt and smock are an intermediate weight fabric. Midway between the current Summer and winter weights.
    Take a knife and cut them open.

    It has. 18,500 pairs of them.Tender worded to exact specs of that model.
    No contract has been awarded and none will be awarded for a few months.

    Well I guess WL Gore need to fire their scientists 'cos they must be telling porky pies.

    https://www.joint-forces.com/product...s-for-footwear
    https://www.gore-workwear.co.uk/tech...mfort-footwear
    You can believe the marketing sales talk all you want or you could maybe listen to the few hundred people who have been wearing them for months on end in the real world in extremely hot climates.

    Yeah. In an ideal world.Not exactly comparing like with like though is it RE the Irish and French Clothing budgets.
    It was done before, up until 2013. 600-700 pairs of light Op desert boots a year isn't going to break the budget considering how much is being wasted on things like naval DPM and thousands of t-shirts that will never be worn, plus thousands of perfectly serviceable pairs of black Haix's and Magnums that will have to be handed-in in exchange for a brown pair on a given date.

  25. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post

    It has. 18,500 pairs of them.Tender worded to exact specs of that model.


    Well I guess WL Gore need to fire their scientists 'cos they must be telling porky pies.

    https://www.joint-forces.com/product...s-for-footwear
    https://www.gore-workwear.co.uk/tech...mfort-footwear

    Yeah. In an ideal world.Not exactly comparing like with like though is it RE the Irish and French Clothing budgets.
    More like gores marketing department have been working overtime.

    Much as gore would like to say otherwise, goretex will cause your feet to sweat in hot climates. "Highly breathable" is all relative - it might be highly breathable compared to a rival membrane, but vs something that has fabric panels that you can feel the air flow through?

    In their civilian line, they've introduced a particular system called surround which involves cutting channels in the sole units to allow air to circulate under the sole of the foot and having a goretex membrane underneath to improve breathability. The jury still seems to be out on whether this offers noticeable advantages, but the fact they've gone to physical measures like this, to me indicates that the limit has been reached with the PTFE membrane itself and other ways of improving breathability are needed. I haven't seen any military boots equipped with this particular technology yet.

    To be fair to WL gore, they put a lot of effort into ensuring boots licensed to use their membrane are as breathable as possible within the limits of the technology, paying particular attention to the types of glues, stitching, laces and fabrics etc but it still can't overcome the physics of a membrane that performs at its best in cold dry conditions.

    My own take is that a goretex boot in 30 plus degrees where you won't generally be wading through stuff is silly - its not appropriate to the task at hand. Irish personnel in UNIFIL have been observed with their own LOWA, AKU and Salomon non membrane lined brown boots since last year.

    I wear non goretex lined boots hiking in the continent during the summer as I find them more comfortable.

    D-Ord has an impossible task given the current budget constraints - the Haix Scout is a compromise that is better than what we have to date, but its not the fix required.

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  27. #419
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    Are there any plans to issue RDF UBACS We wear body armour for nearly everything now. Last week was on an ex with PDF which was complete with gsba and the rdf were in shirts and armour which is very uncomfortable when it gets sweaty.
    For these types of exercises we should have them

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  29. #420
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    UBACS are only being issued for overseas. Most people in the Army who haven't been overseas in the last few years don't have them, if they request one they get told overseas issue only. So I'd say it's very unlikely the RDF will get them.

  30. #421
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    Ah fair enough.
    Looks like itll be a while so

  31. #422
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    So is body armour only issued for overseas tasks, or is that just different?

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  33. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    So is body armour only issued for overseas tasks, or is that just different?
    Training and ops at home are carried out in CBA.

    UBACS only issued for overseas service.

  34. #424
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    Take a knife and cut them open.
    Will do.Once I have a spare worn out pair.


    No contract has been awarded and none will be awarded for a few months.
    I am fully aware of where we are with the tender and the F**k up surrounding it.I am also fully aware that "Boots, Multi-role" is going to be the Haix Scout.

    You can believe the marketing sales talk all you want or you could maybe listen to the few hundred people who have been wearing them for months on end in the real world in extremely hot climates.
    I am not calling your integrity into question but I have spoken to lads who have worn them overseas in hot weather and they have reported no issues.Also were they not trialled extensively overseas before they decided to go to tender on them? According to D Ord they were.Were all those test reports BS?? Maybe the fault is the users?? Are those people putting inappropriate products on them like wax or dubbin.I am not saying they are but after hearing what the last gang that went to UNDOF were told to do with their Scouts it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

    It was done before, up until 2013. 600-700 pairs of light Op desert boots a year isn't going to break the budget considering how much is being wasted on things like naval DPM and thousands of t-shirts that will never be worn, plus thousands of perfectly serviceable pairs of black Haix's and Magnums that will have to be handed-in in exchange for a brown pair on a given date.
    Yeah.Before the bottom fell out of the clothing Budget.I agree we should have the right kit for the right climate but seeing as cost cutting seems to be current driving force for subhead managers that's where we are and I don't see it getting better anytime soon.I totally agree that Naval DPM is a total vanity project and a waste of money.I also totally agree that there need to be some clarity about boot issues at the moment otherwise we could end up in a situation where someone is issued a pair of Black boots and a week later the Brown comes in and they are forbidden to wear them.Good return on the taxpayers money there.Either that or we are heading to Mixed dress on parade and there is no way the ADJT's and BSM's will wear that.


    D-Ord has an impossible task given the current budget constraints - the Haix Scout is a compromise that is better than what we have to date, but its not the fix required.
    Yet they are fritting money away on stupid shit such as lopsided DPM shirts,Naval DPM to blend in with.....nothing and T-Shirts that are the wrong size.

    Quote Originally Posted by koppiteal View Post
    Are there any plans to issue RDF UBACS We wear body armour for nearly everything now. Last week was on an ex with PDF which was complete with gsba and the rdf were in shirts and armour which is very uncomfortable when it gets sweaty.
    For these types of exercises we should have them
    +1 on that. UBACS are considered PPE and while perhaps there is not a requirement for the RDF to be issued the same amount of them per soldier,or as often, as the PDF due to the amount of use they would get they should 100% be on the issue scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    UBACS are only being issued for overseas. Most people in the Army who haven't been overseas in the last few years don't have them, if they request one they get told overseas issue only. So I'd say it's very unlikely the RDF will get them.
    Quote Originally Posted by northie View Post
    Training and ops at home are carried out in CBA.

    UBACS only issued for overseas service.
    UBACS are on the general issue scale for all Army Line personnel.Not just for overseas.Must be a 2BDE thing.1 BDE Pers are being issued them as requested.Granted Overseas Pers get priority during the form up period but outside of that they ARE being issued.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  36. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    I am not calling your integrity into question but I have spoken to lads who have worn them overseas in hot weather and they have reported no issues.Also were they not trialled extensively overseas before they decided to go to tender on them? According to D Ord they were.Were all those test reports BS?? Maybe the fault is the users?? Are those people putting inappropriate products on them like wax or dubbin.I am not saying they are but after hearing what the last gang that went to UNDOF were told to do with their Scouts it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
    Yes, they were trialled, but how many of them trail boots ended up on the feet of senior NCO's who work in offices and stores and not on those doing 24hr guard duties, driving Mowags, carrying out foot patrols with the LAF? Was a light op desert (non-gore-tex) boot trialled as an alternative? I haven't heard of anyone applying polish or dubbin on them other than the last UNDOF crowed you mentioned. They are a decent boot, but they are not the solution to the overseas hot climate boot problem.

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