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  1. #1
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    AC & NS personnel overseas

    Talking about overseas as in the tradition ground based on eg IRISHFINBATT with UNIFIL

    Is there the same contractual obligation on members of the NS & AC to serve overseas to extend etc the contracts?

  2. #2
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    I'm not sure about the NS but it is the case for the AC as far as I'm aware.

    It's an absurd policy and downright dangerous to have people serving in Infantry roles who aren't part of the Infantry Corps.

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  4. #3
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    TBH my thinking was there are quite a high number on the Leb trip compared to the size of the services and the number of vacancies they have

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fridge Magnet View Post
    I'm not sure about the NS but it is the case for the AC as far as I'm aware.

    It's an absurd policy and downright dangerous to have people serving in Infantry roles who aren't part of the Infantry Corps.
    Especially so when infantry trained RDF cant go.

  6. #5
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    NS and AC would still have had more infantry training than RDF bods even before pre deployment training danno get real.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    NS and AC would still have had more infantry training than RDF bods even before pre deployment training danno get real.
    Not any more.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    NS and AC would still have had more infantry training than RDF bods even before pre deployment training danno get real.
    Maybe at some stage, when they were recruits. As for when they become Airmen, Seamen etc? Not a hope.

    I'd take an RDF body with 5 years in the Infantry with me overseas as a rifleman quicker than I would an Airman or Seaman with 5 years service in the respective jobs.

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  12. #8
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    It comes up here regularly that the AC dont have the aircraft capacity to do overseas and that the NS units are not suitable for every given overseas op as the units cant defend themselves etc. The overseas imperative for career progression is about the members and not the hardware. Is it time for , eg, a division of NS to serve on some unit from another state with similiar interests etc. Outcome would be much the same.

  13. #9
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    If both services weren't so short of personnel it would be feasible to send for example SOs and staff NCOs for a mission air cell, an AVPD, a Naval Boarding Team, some rear aircrew etc etc.

    Obviously with suitable equipment and mission major assets could be sent.

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  15. #10
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    its not Vietnam we talking about .. ns..and ac personell are all trained in guard duties and ns personell are all part of defence forces ,, old school officers did not let many ns/ac get the leb ,, but cooks and admin people always served many trips...thankfully this all changed in 90s as a lot army lads did not want to go ...

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    It seems about the dumbest idea in all of human history to take a mission critical, and expensively trained, avionics engineer from an already short staffed Maritime Surveillance unit and to give them a rifle and make them act as the barrier bitch in Lebanon for 6 months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    It seems about the dumbest idea in all of human history to take a mission critical, and expensively trained, avionics engineer from an already short staffed Maritime Surveillance unit and to give them a rifle and make them act as the barrier bitch in Lebanon for 6 months.
    do they not need overseas now for promotion ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    It seems about the dumbest idea in all of human history to take a mission critical, and expensively trained, avionics engineer from an already short staffed Maritime Surveillance unit and to give them a rifle and make them act as the barrier bitch in Lebanon for 6 months.
    I'm currently in the Leb and I can tell you no is acting as any barrier bitch. A lot of the NS personnel have staff appointments so I welcome their inclusion and experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Craghopper View Post
    I'm currently in the Leb and I can tell you no is acting as any barrier bitch. A lot of the NS personnel have staff appointments so I welcome their inclusion and experience.
    Is that not depriving the "Army" types of the Staff appointments experience?

    Craggy, at the latter stages of my stints, the big problems we had was officers going out in NCO appointments but not doing them, i.e. Mess Sgt, Welfare NCO etc - is it still the same?

    By the way, it's good to see your still getting the cushy trips.............
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  21. #15
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    An Air Corps individual known to me was sent to the Leb and took a slot (not his choice but the Army types didn't want an avo in the field) that was coveted by Army types who considered it "their" home away from home so he was given shit by some people.

  22. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    An Air Corps individual known to me was sent to the Leb and took a slot (not his choice but the Army types didn't want an avo in the field) that was coveted by Army types who considered it "their" home away from home so he was given shit by some people.
    I don't agree with giving lads shit, but I was going to say sometimes, but it's AC so I'll say every time, AC lads are hyper sensitive because they are so used to the world of cushiness that is AME.

    But look at it from the Army point of view, day in day out they work through the shite, GOHs, Escorts, xercises, displays, standbys, the hotel etc etc and then the half four lads who wear trousers and shoes get the nice overseas spots.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  23. #17
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    It's the DoD that set the terms and conditions of contracts.

    Perhaps if the DoD committed to overseas appointments in the Naval and Air spheres the appropriate personnel would have a chance at showing on a world stage their specific and trained for skill sets.

    Why do Naval and Air Corps Officers have to go through a Infantry centric Command & Staff course learning about Armoured Battlion in Defence Exercises?

    Why can't the three services provide proportionate representation in DFHQ appointments? Why does the Army kick up stink when an Air Corps Officer is put into SPB?

  24. #18
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Why do Naval and Air Corps Officers have to go through a Infantry centric Command & Staff course learning about Armoured Battlion in Defence Exercises?
    because AC and NS specific ones would have more instructors than students.

    In fairness, the subject matter is relevant if they are in a command/staff job, but conducting a infantry battalion attack is not the same as a AC squadron deploying on ops. The MDMP is likely to be the same (or very similar).

    Why does the Army kick up stink when an Air Corps Officer is put into SPB?
    wasn't the redress by the AC?

  25. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    Is that not depriving the "Army" types of the Staff appointments experience?

    Craggy, at the latter stages of my stints, the big problems we had was officers going out in NCO appointments but not doing them, i.e. Mess Sgt, Welfare NCO etc - is it still the same?

    By the way, it's good to see your still getting the cushy trips.............
    Their is a large number of Lt's on this one however they're not filling NCO appointments that used to be the case. And eh.. my job is far from cushy..

  26. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    ...............

    Why can't the three services provide proportionate representation in DFHQ appointments? Why does the Army kick up stink when an Air Corps Officer is put into SPB?
    By C & P is it an army post?

  27. #21
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    whilst DFHQ wants NS and AC going overseas, this is not going down well with the lads themselves so they are leaving in droves, especially techs. DFHQ blindly following a doctrine that pisses people off and then they wonder why they can't keep techs....

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  29. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    whilst DFHQ wants NS and AC going overseas, this is not going down well with the lads themselves so they are leaving in droves, especially techs. DFHQ blindly following a doctrine that pisses people off and then they wonder why they can't keep techs....
    Why is a doctrine of expecting people to serving outside the country now and then a problem.

  30. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Why is a doctrine of expecting people to serving outside the country now and then a problem.
    More to the point, shouldn't the DF be pushing towards a doctrine of having forces deployed outside the country even if it does cause issues.

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  32. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    whilst DFHQ wants NS and AC going overseas, this is not going down well with the lads themselves so they are leaving in droves, especially techs. DFHQ blindly following a doctrine that pisses people off and then they wonder why they can't keep techs....
    Do you speak for everyone in the AC & NS?

    Going overseas has never been a requirement for promotion for tech vacancies in the AC. The numerous Flt Sgts and other Snr NCOs with only a service medal is testament to that.

    There is certainly no gun to their heads as you seem to be making out.

  33. #25
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Captain Obvious to the rescue once again.
    I was actually looking at the other specs not just the number of seats

    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    whilst DFHQ wants NS and AC going overseas, this is not going down well with the lads themselves so they are leaving in droves, especially techs. DFHQ blindly following a doctrine that pisses people off and then they wonder why they can't keep techs....
    i'd imagine it is much more to do with pay, promotion, conditions etc

    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Why is a doctrine of expecting people to serving outside the country now and then a problem.
    i'd imagine he is talking more about the bureaucracy that sees the AC having to fit in with admin (that the army finds it difficult to fit in never mind the AC

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