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  1. #26
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    AC and NS never went overseas, because the Army didn't want them, didn't like or understand them and was taking them out of their natural environment, especially NS. In my time, only volunteers went to actual gun carrying jobs in UNIFIL and the like, not actual tech jobs, because they encountered hostility from the Army, who saw them as usurping their slots. I've mentioned this before. Going overseas was simply not done. All the Line guys in the Don used to sneer the few Donners who went to the Leb! (yizzer taking our jobs, was one I heard). Later, when contracts and Ts and Cs changed, lads found that a requirement of promotion or signing on for another Three was to have a stint in the UN done. Which was why you had a sudden rush of Donners and NS overseas on UN duty. If you didn't "volunteer", it was held against you. I know people who left rather than go carrying a rifle in the Leb. What's the point of spending four years on the books, taking shit as an aptce, working hard to get a trade, build up skills and knowledge, just to find that the DF wants you to chop six months out of your life??!! Because some guy in DFHQ thinks the Don are getting away with it?

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  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    AC and NS never went overseas, because the Army didn't want them, didn't like or understand them and was taking them out of their natural environment, especially NS. In my time, only volunteers went to actual gun carrying jobs in UNIFIL and the like, not actual tech jobs, because they encountered hostility from the Army, who saw them as usurping their slots. I've mentioned this before. Going overseas was simply not done. All the Line guys in the Don used to sneer the few Donners who went to the Leb! (yizzer taking our jobs, was one I heard). Later, when contracts and Ts and Cs changed, lads found that a requirement of promotion or signing on for another Three was to have a stint in the UN done. Which was why you had a sudden rush of Donners and NS overseas on UN duty. If you didn't "volunteer", it was held against you. I know people who left rather than go carrying a rifle in the Leb. What's the point of spending four years on the books, taking shit as an aptce, working hard to get a trade, build up skills and knowledge, just to find that the DF wants you to chop six months out of your life??!! Because some guy in DFHQ thinks the Don are getting away with it?
    Why did they not take an apprenticeship in Aer Lingus. if they did not like the military stuff.? I can see there hesitation to play soldiers. but having a problem being ordered abroad to fix aircraft is another thing.

  4. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    AC and NS never went overseas, because the Army didn't want them, didn't like or understand them and was taking them out of their natural environment, especially NS. In my time, only volunteers went to actual gun carrying jobs in UNIFIL and the like, not actual tech jobs, because they encountered hostility from the Army, who saw them as usurping their slots. I've mentioned this before. Going overseas was simply not done. All the Line guys in the Don used to sneer the few Donners who went to the Leb! (yizzer taking our jobs, was one I heard). Later, when contracts and Ts and Cs changed, lads found that a requirement of promotion or signing on for another Three was to have a stint in the UN done. Which was why you had a sudden rush of Donners and NS overseas on UN duty. If you didn't "volunteer", it was held against you. I know people who left rather than go carrying a rifle in the Leb. What's the point of spending four years on the books, taking shit as an aptce, working hard to get a trade, build up skills and knowledge, just to find that the DF wants you to chop six months out of your life??!! Because some guy in DFHQ thinks the Don are getting away with it?
    I'm sure the money came in very handy for them

    I meant in role. The NS has been doing overseas operational deployments (that just leaves the AC)

  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    AC and NS never went overseas, because the Army didn't want them, didn't like or understand them and was taking them out of their natural environment, especially NS. In my time, only volunteers went to actual gun carrying jobs in UNIFIL and the like, not actual tech jobs, because they encountered hostility from the Army, who saw them as usurping their slots. I've mentioned this before. Going overseas was simply not done. All the Line guys in the Don used to sneer the few Donners who went to the Leb! (yizzer taking our jobs, was one I heard). Later, when contracts and Ts and Cs changed, lads found that a requirement of promotion or signing on for another Three was to have a stint in the UN done. Which was why you had a sudden rush of Donners and NS overseas on UN duty. If you didn't "volunteer", it was held against you. I know people who left rather than go carrying a rifle in the Leb. What's the point of spending four years on the books, taking shit as an aptce, working hard to get a trade, build up skills and knowledge, just to find that the DF wants you to chop six months out of your life??!! Because some guy in DFHQ thinks the Don are getting away with it?
    You can't have your cake and eat it.

    Overseas service is part and parcel of the agreement and it is something that applies to everyone regardless of completing an apprenticeship or not, including pilots, ATC etc.

    Many of your posts regarding the AC and a general theme is that the AC is reluctant to get their hands dirty and get "on the ground" with the troops. On the other hand you now suggest that techs (specifically) shouldn't be sent overseas by virtue of the fact that they are specialists. I'd rather see a tech serve overseas for 6 months than spend 4 nights a year in a tent in kilworth with a heli as has been suggested elsewhere.

    Perhaps it is as a result of newer contracts but I'd be hopeful that techs and other specialists don't share the same opinion as you.

    Overseas service isn't just about "carrying a rifle". There is far more to be gained by way of personal development serving overseas for a short period (6 months is short in the grand scheme of things) rather than shooting the breeze and driving out of "the don" at 1600 every day Monday to Friday.

  6. #30
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    @sofa, They weren't fixing aircraft abroad, it was normal infantry stuff. Aviation in the Leb is confined to the Italians. One guy even volunteered to help service vehicles and was refused. Some of my contemporaries who went on UN trips asked to be posted to formal tech roles but were refused; I knew at least one NS engine man who was posted to carry a rifle as no-one really knew where to place him so he got rotated around a bit. Effectively, when a guy goes on an overseas rotation, he's out of the food chain for 8 months. An individual I know was told that his chances of promotion or retention were essentially nil unless he did a UN trip and this was not a local edict but passed down from above. He seriously considered leaving because the last thing he needed was a 6-month hole in his life.......let me tell you another one. A friend was earmarked for a Standard Course; met all the criteria, given the start date,etc....last minute, you're not going! why not? haven't fired the SRAAW! the wha?.....frantically arranged trip to the Curragh, collect one plastic pipe with explosive filling and go to the Glen. One loud bang later, man achieves entrance to Std Course. Now, to an AC guy, that kind of stuff is the height of craziness, but it happened....

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  8. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    @sofa, They weren't fixing aircraft abroad, it was normal infantry stuff. Aviation in the Leb is confined to the Italians. One guy even volunteered to help service vehicles and was refused. Some of my contemporaries who went on UN trips asked to be posted to formal tech roles but were refused; I knew at least one NS engine man who was posted to carry a rifle as no-one really knew where to place him so he got rotated around a bit. Effectively, when a guy goes on an overseas rotation, he's out of the food chain for 8 months. An individual I know was told that his chances of promotion or retention were essentially nil unless he did a UN trip and this was not a local edict but passed down from above. He seriously considered leaving because the last thing he needed was a 6-month hole in his life.......let me tell you another one. A friend was earmarked for a Standard Course; met all the criteria, given the start date,etc....last minute, you're not going! why not? haven't fired the SRAAW! the wha?.....frantically arranged trip to the Curragh, collect one plastic pipe with explosive filling and go to the Glen. One loud bang later, man achieves entrance to Std Course. Now, to an AC guy, that kind of stuff is the height of craziness, but it happened....
    Ok it's clear to me now

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  10. #32
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    @chuck, well, the DF wants to have it's cake and eat it. It's shedding techs like rainwater and it's fleet utility and availability is pants yet it insists they go overseas to hold a rifle. When an inmate tells me that they've lost 30 techs from the Don in two years and more are quitting, this year alone, as fast as they can sign the paper, the DF needs to grip the situation and one of the complaints is the need to be sent oversea to hold a rifle. Over the years, plenty of techs have volunteered to go overseas and do tech work, but have been consistently refused, despite their obvious utility. People are quite willing to go, even if only for a change, but they'd prefer to be doing what they trained for, which is tech work. It isn't just about people acting like princesses. The Don is well beyond the "out the gate by 1630" mentality, which, I may remind you, was certainly not confined to the Don...It's pointless to use expensively trained people in any other function............re options on aircraft. The Don has bad form in this regard. I sincerely hope, which ever airframe they buy, that they don't overload it with crap and wonder why it can't perform.

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  12. #33
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    @GTTC,

    I'm not entirely sure where this notion of technicians being forced to go overseas to attain promotion is coming from.

    A tiny percentage of AC personnel (all ranks, not just techs) go overseas every year. The vast majority are line, both enlisted and officer.

    In fact, Id say that you could count the number of techs "being sent" overseas in a 12 month period on one hand.

    I'll say it again, there is no gun being held to anyone's head to go overseas. If personnel want to go overseas to get points for promotion which will put them higher in the pecking order then so be it. If nothing else it shows a bit of initiative.

    It is accepted that even for the newer entrants that simply volunteering ticks the overseas box for promotion.

    Do we just not send any specialist personnel overseas if they are not doing a similar role abroad? Pilots, Aircrew, SAROs, ATC, Avionics etc?

  13. #34
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    I think the point is army centric career courses and HR policies can have a negative effect on the AC (and NS)

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I think the point is army centric career courses and HR policies can have a negative effect on the AC (and NS)
    I think requiring AC techs to go overseas as riflemen is effectively telling the AC that they are hobbiests and their only meaningful role is in the infantry.
    If there is no provision for the AC to deploy overseas, there should be no requirement for AC personnel to, in effect, temporarily transfer out of the service to deploy overseas.
    We don't require service on a ship for promotion in the army.

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  17. #36
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    Waste of time that it may be for AC techies to carry a rifle or man the gate overseas it's a good way for lads to get a bit of cash together to buy a site or buy an Audi instead! Nobody in the DF is well paid so that overseas money may be important to some donners.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  19. #37
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    They should be given the opportunity but it shouldn't be a requirement (even a perceived one).

    The issue then of course is they will have to have done the army course. We all know the stories of US cooks etc going out in Somalia to help the Rangers. Well Irish HQ staff in Kosovo went out and rescued people.

    Just crossed my mind, this is a similar problem the RDF can have with DF policies

    For example most of the subjects on the All Arms Std NCO Cse would be relevant to an AC Sgt, hours wise the tactical element is a big part that could arguably be an optional module for AC Cpls.
    Last edited by DeV; 12th May 2017 at 07:56.

  20. #38
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    That 15m shouldve been spent on large drones, flown, operated and maintained by the DF then deployed overseas in support of ISTAR with AC personnel. Fills a capability hole and provides a meaningful overseas role for AC personnel as a by product. but who am i to talk.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  21. #39
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    [QUOTE=DeV;451263]They should be given the opportunity but it shouldn't be a requirement (even a perceived one).

    The issue then of course is they will have to have done the army course. We all know the stories of US cooks etc going out in Somalia to help the Rangers. Well Irish HQ staff in Kosovo went out and rescued people.

    The BA had a different experience in Afghan, cooks (not all) etc cooked, took deep cover whenever the base was attacked and phoned home accounts of the conflict they had seen on SKY tv...........

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