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Thread: Rescue 116

  1. #76
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    I'm not convinced that it is either seemly or respectful to the memories of the crew of Rescue 116 that this thread should have degenerated into an AC slagging exercise but the comments here cannot go unanswered. I for one am not blind to the faults of the AC - both organisationally and culturally - but the key point about Top Cover is being missed by a country mile. CHC, as a commercial organisation, entered into a contract for service where Top Cover is their responsibility. The DOU with the AC does not mandate that the AC provide Top Cover, it merely commits them to assist on a 'best efforts' basis. To blame the AC, or more specifically in the case of Ropebag's comments, to blame specific AC personnel is very, very wide of the mark.

    I would, in the first instance, be asking the question of CHC ownership and management whether their TC arrangements are fit for purpose.

    However at this point we don't know what caused Rescue 116 to crash - we don't know if fixed wing TC would have helped. I would suggest that we leave the finger pointing until after the missing crew have been recovered, the report is concluded and the causes of the crash are known.

    In the meantime however I would suggest that CHC management need to review the TC arrangements they have put in place. It is a commercial contract won by public tender. I am sure the costing of TC featured in their pricing case.
    “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
    ― Thucydides

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqra View Post
    ...CHC, as a commercial organisation, entered into a contract for service where Top Cover is their responsibility.

    ..I would, in the first instance, be asking the question of CHC ownership and management whether their TC arrangements are fit for purpose.

    ...In the meantime however I would suggest that CHC management need to review the TC arrangements they have put in place. It is a commercial contract won by public tender. I am sure the costing of TC featured in their pricing case.
    if we assume you are correct, and i've no reason to believe otherwise - where are the Irish Government lawyers who should be breathing down CHC's neck for failing to honour their side off the deal?

    where is the minister standing up in the Dail and telling TD's that the Government has suspended payments to CHC for failing to provide the agreed service the Government is paying for?

    if CHC is supposed to be providing top cover, why have these things not happened?

  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Yes, I'm not *entirely* sure that highlighting that the two CASA's were grounded for four weeks while components were removed, sent to Spain, fixed and then returned - instead of insisting that replacement parts were sent out from Spain is helping the the PR effort...

    The fact remains that either the AC knew it would be required to generate an aircraft and did nothing about it for 3 hours, and then when it tried it took them 3 hours to find a qualified crew, or it took them 6 hours to find a qualified crew.

    Which of those alternatives do you find more comforting?
    Aer Corp are not tasked to have a top cover air craft at the ready for the Coast Guard. If the Coast Guard make a request and its possible,
    then the aircraft will be diverted to give a dig out with a heart and a half. When needed for the downed aircraft they responded.

    Are air crews required to take 45 min at night from waking up and taking off for safety reasons. plus tecties arriving, plus prepping. plus distance to go ,may be the best part of three hours. ???
    Last edited by sofa; 17th March 2017 at 22:11.

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  6. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    if we assume you are correct, and i've no reason to believe otherwise - where are the Irish Government lawyers who should be breathing down CHC's neck for failing to honour their side off the deal?

    where is the minister standing up in the Dail and telling TD's that the Government has suspended payments to CHC for failing to provide the agreed service the Government is paying for?

    if CHC is supposed to be providing top cover, why have these things not happened?
    Because they were providing their own TC, with another S92.

    Dail is on holidays.

    Because the State would need up being sued before the outcome is determined by AAIU.

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  8. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    if we assume you are correct, and i've no reason to believe otherwise - where are the Irish Government lawyers who should be breathing down CHC's neck for failing to honour their side off the deal?

    where is the minister standing up in the Dail and telling TD's that the Government has suspended payments to CHC for failing to provide the agreed service the Government is paying for?

    if CHC is supposed to be providing top cover, why have these things not happened?
    I would imagine the question of top cover is a question the families of the crew should ask CHC. not the Aer Corp.

  9. #81
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    R116 departing Dublin, (At 01.40 min) (03.50 min)
    http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ei...2017-2300Z.mp3
    Last edited by sofa; 17th March 2017 at 23:09.

  10. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    if we assume you are correct, and i've no reason to believe otherwise - where are the Irish Government lawyers who should be breathing down CHC's neck for failing to honour their side off the deal?

    where is the minister standing up in the Dail and telling TD's that the Government has suspended payments to CHC for failing to provide the agreed service the Government is paying for?

    if CHC is supposed to be providing top cover, why have these things not happened?
    Chc did honour its side of the deal and four of its employees have lost their lives whilst delivering a critical State service in difficult conditions. CHC provided its own T/C , the casevac was successful but tragedy overtook events.

    One aspect of the media reporting that is disturbing is the manner it which it portrayed the AC which declined to provide T/C in three cases this year (which it can validly decline and is under no responsibility to provide same) as having "refused" to provide T/C. The use of this term suggests an element of insubordination on the part of the AC and complete indifference to the CG crews and the victims who needed to be picked up.
    This is unfair to the AC and indeed the DF organisation and the DoD/DF are well entitled to refute this and have it withdrawn.

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  12. #83
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    There is some degree of criticism of the Air Corps response in this thread.

    The link below relates to a similar incident ...

    http://www.military.ie/en/press-offi...8c12aad97a787c

    In my opinion the Air Corps like any other organisation will operate within the parameters and budget as set by those who hold the purse strings

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  14. #84
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    Indeed the T/C saga has been well aired here already;

    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...1744-Top-cover

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  16. #85
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    I see the Naval Service state in a Facebook post that LE Eithne is using her Hull Mounted Sonar in the search.
    I though that piece of equipment haddnt been used in years?

    https://www.facebook.com/irishnavals...80742298675330
    Im Ron Burgendy??

  17. #86
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    I don't think you are correct there. Eithne is using sidescan, which is towed, and the hull mounted photo comes from L.E. Roisin.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  19. #87
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    I'm only reading what the NS are posting themselves.
    Attachment 8403
    They state that Eithne is using her Hull Mounted Systems, they also mention that the picture displayed
    Is the sidescan displayed on Rosin!

    Have a look at the description of the third picture.
    Last edited by tonyrdf; 18th March 2017 at 11:47.
    Im Ron Burgendy??

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  21. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyrdf View Post
    I'm only reading what the NS are posting themselves.
    Attachment 8403
    They state that Eithne is using her Hull Mounted Systems, they also mention that the picture displayed
    Is the sidescan displayed on Rosin!

    Have a look at the description of the third picture.
    I see what you mean now. Last time I looked there was a large open space where the Hull mounted sonar display was kept. I also heard the retractable sonar housing was closed up some years ago. Apart from the usual depth finding sonar, unless they have upgraded the user interface.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  22. #89
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    The contract will cover the provision and fit of a Multi Beam Echo Sounder/Sonar System. Where suitable, it will replace an existing system and use existing through hull apertures however it is appreciated that this may not be possible in every case.

    The Multi Beam Echo Sounder /Sonar System will be capable of building a three dimensional profile or picture of the seabed around the ship and will be suitable for seabed and water column searches in Search and Rescue, Security and Navigation Safety functions.


    Technical Requirements

    a. NS has limited hull mounted underwater detection capability. This limits utility in sunken vessels searches. The equipment purchased therefore must be capable of improving the situational awareness of NS ships in relation to the undersea domain.
    b. In particular the equipment must improve NS capacity to locate and profile obstructions and wrecks on the seabed. The system will be multi-beam. It will have a 3D sea-floor/ object modelling function and a contour mapping function. It should also improve the possibility of detecting vessels or objects submerged in the water column above the seabed.
    c. The system should permit deductions to be made in relation to the nature of the seabed itself. The system will be have a beam spread to port and starboard of not less than 100º allowing the plotting of a swath of the seabed either side of the vessel. The beam spread will be adjustable in accordance to varying conditions, depths and search requirements.
    d. The system will be capable of operating in waters of depth varying from 1m to not less than 500m.
    e. The power outputs and frequencies in use should be fit for purpose but should not be of an order known to cause distress or harm to cetaceans. Frequencies in the order of 80 kHz and power outputs in the order of 100W to 1.5kW would be anticipated for the system but it is understood that these will vary based on the system tendered. The tender will include details of the operating frequencies and power and, if significantly different from those anticipated, will explain the technical reasons for those differences. Equipment provided must include all elements needed for full installation and operation of the system. The schedule will need to include all transducers, transceivers, glands, fixtures, computers, displays and connectors needed.
    https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/pu.../PublicTenders

    I imagine it should be technically possible to listen for the ultrasonic pings from the black box using the same or similar equipment - there's just a difference in frequency of about 40kHz
    Last edited by pym; 18th March 2017 at 13:46.

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  24. #90
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    MOD: let's leave the debate to the media (who are pre-guessing the outcome of an expert AAIU inquiry that will be lengthy, thorough and will leave no stone unturned to find out what happened).

    Let's give the families, friends and colleagues a bit of respect.

    Let's hope that the remaining 3 crew are recovered quickly.

    This thread will remain open in the hope that there will be good news to post

  25. #91
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    By coincidence, a brother of a work colleague of mine was one of those called in to man the Casa for that mission and he went in, despite not being officially rostered for on-call. One of the pilots was recalled from holiday leave, not just at home in bed, so it illustrates the difficulty of rounding up an ad-hoc, unrostered posse to fill the Casa (six people, isn't it, for a full crew?) as well as techs to get the aircraft ready from a standing start. If you had had a few pints, you couldn't have gone in, with the best will in the world. so,if anyone is to get a slap for this, take it to AC management and then to the DoD and Finance.

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  27. #92
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    AS we all know, the fishing industry is one of the most dangerous work environments and considering this, take a look at ais right now 100km off the mayo coast and zoom in to note the amount of, size of , nationality of and imagine the amount of people working out there plundering our waters right now. IT sickens me to think that brave men and women of the coastguard and NS/AC have to put their lives on the line every time some poor exploited deck hand gets injured due to poor and unlawful working environment. The money men behind this complete military style exploitation/ hovering up of fish stocks should be made pay for rescue in some way (i know this is being idealistic) but just take a look at current ais. I think the rescue services will continue to be as busy as they have been for the last few weeks in and out to this fleet (3 long range helo ops in the last two weeks involving ns). It just sickening and all wrong in my opinion. rant over!

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  29. #93
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    Declan Powers on Marian Finucane this morning. From 30min 50sec. worth a listen.

    http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radiop...2D03%2D2017%5F

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  31. #94
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    My god her voice is irritating.

    Good point well made though. (Not that Declan was listened to).
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  32. #95
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    plundering our waters right now
    Grind your axe elsewhere . If you want to raise a topic about fish quotas in the EU by all means but 4 people lost their life here on a shout. Have some fking perspective. The modding on this thread is going to get far harsher if this plonkery continues.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  34. #96
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    His points were well made but that didn't stop that wagon from glossing over them.

    It's a telling indication of the DoDs level of competency, efficiency and agility when they still have Simon Coveney as the Minister on their website

    http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/do...2570BA00421F88

  35. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Grind your axe elsewhere . If you want to raise a topic about fish quotas in the EU by all means but 4 people lost their life here on a shout. Have some fking perspective. The modding on this thread is going to get far harsher if this plonkery continues.
    Your the one missing the point. As an IRCG volunteer who has worked with some of the crew of 116 i can assure you i have more respect than most. Fact is, there wouldnt have been a shout in the first place (3 in two weeks and all to this fleet) if this massive commercial exercise wasnt happening.

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  37. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    His points were well made but that didn't stop that wagon from glossing over them.

    It's a telling indication of the DoDs level of competency, efficiency and agility when they still have Simon Coveney as the Minister on their website

    http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/do...2570BA00421F88
    http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/home+page?openform

    You must be looking at a different one

  38. #99
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    Your the one missing the point. As an IRCG volunteer who has worked with some of the crew of 116 i can assure you i have more respect than most. Fact is, there wouldnt have been a shout in the first place (3 in two weeks and all to this fleet) if this massive commercial exercise wasnt happening.
    How the fk is regular fishing activity relevant ? I'm posting this in white cos I just can't see how you can make the intellectual leap here "fish quotas got R116 crew killed" By that logic you can keep that train going till "European Union kills R116 crew " . Like I said start another thread cos it stinks of axe-grinding.
    Last edited by trellheim; 20th March 2017 at 13:05.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  40. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    How the fk is regular fishing activity relevant ? I'm posting this in white cos I just can't see how you can make the intellectual leap here "fish quotas got R116 crew killed" By that logic you can keep that train going till "European Union kills R116 crew " . Like I said start another thread cos it stinks of axe-grinding.
    to be strictly fair, its well known reaction to loss - if X hadn't happened, then Y would not have happened.

    if the deckhand hadn't injured himself - or been fishing off Spain - then the helicopter wouldn't have been in the air and therefore wouldn't have crashed. technically that might be true, if something failed then that failure might have been spotted on the ground, or that Seagull wouldn't have flown into the engine - but its flawed logic, the truth is that if you operate helicopters you're eventually going to lose one/some, and if you operate helicopters at night, in crap weather, over the water and sometimes at the ragged edge of their capabilities then you're going to lose more.

    my ex-wife holds this view over the death of her mother - if someone had called 999 instead of calling NHS 24 when she showed signs of having a stroke she might have survived, this however misses the point that if you smoke 30 a day for 40 years you're eventually going to die of lung cancer. which she did.

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