Thanks Thanks:  98
Likes Likes:  119
Dislikes Dislikes:  15
Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 167

Thread: Rescue 116

  1. #101
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,358
    Post Thanks / Like
    I agree. Its called attrition; you put enough people in harm's way and, unsurprisingly, some of them won't get to come home. Flying helicopters, even sophisticated ones, is still a risky business and the loss rate of helicopters is always higher than that of fixed wing aircraft and SAR ops hold a higher risk than just tootling from the Don to the Curragh......Ireland,as a State, doesn't do attrition well; it hates having to fess up to making mistakes, especially ones that cost lives; the Niemba massacre, the crash of DH 248, both of which highlighted organisational failures. sadly, it has taken yet another fatal accident to highlight some positives; we, the people hold our rescue services in high esteem (regardless of who is actually flying the helicopters), especially when the rescuers are prepared to go all out for the job; we, the people still respect volunteerism (which is cynically exploited by the State in all walks of life instead of actually funding services) and will often go to the ends of the earth to do it......@ropebag, that logic reminds me of Middle east logic; a taxi was hired by a colleague in Dubai and the driver hit another car at a roundabout, yet my colleague got blamed; if the foreigner hadn't hired a taxi and collided with a native, then it wouldn't have happened, so it's all the foreigner's fault. Money changed hands and my colleague was whisked out of Dubai and never set foot there again.

  2. #102
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    171
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    How the fk is regular fishing activity relevant ? I'm posting this in white cos I just can't see how you can make the intellectual leap here "fish quotas got R116 crew killed" By that logic you can keep that train going till "European Union kills R116 crew " . Like I said start another thread cos it stinks of axe-grinding.
    I never once mentioned quotas sir, nor have i any interest in discussing the cfp. There is nothing "regular" as you put it about the fishing activity off our west coast as the numbers are increasing every year. There are 110 approx vessels out there ranging in size from 70m to 110m factory ships, at an average of 30 souls per ship thats 3000 working in very dangerous conditions on these unregulated vessels. the law of averages suggests the bigger the numbers at risk the more callouts for us, or can you not understand that? Im glad it has finally reached the public domain today that the callout turned out to be a laceration to someones thumb, which the skipper of the foreign vessel couldnt manage to communicate properly (something the rescue community have been aware of from day one making this all the more difficult to swallow). when these fleets have moved on to exploit other seas without even a look over their shoulder we will be left to bury our dead. yes im mad and i make no apologies for it.

  3. #103
    Brigadier General
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Twice I have had to ring for a Ambulance and each time I was asked questions about the patient.

  4. #104
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Here And There...
    Posts
    10,170
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    I agree. Its called attrition; you put enough people in harm's way and, unsurprisingly, some of them won't get to come home. Flying helicopters, even sophisticated ones, is still a risky business and the loss rate of helicopters is always higher than that of fixed wing aircraft and SAR ops hold a higher risk than just tootling from the Don to the Curragh......Ireland,as a State, doesn't do attrition well; it hates having to fess up to making mistakes, especially ones that cost lives; the Niemba massacre, the crash of DH 248, both of which highlighted organisational failures. sadly, it has taken yet another fatal accident to highlight some positives; we, the people hold our rescue services in high esteem (regardless of who is actually flying the helicopters), especially when the rescuers are prepared to go all out for the job; we, the people still respect volunteerism (which is cynically exploited by the State in all walks of life instead of actually funding services) and will often go to the ends of the earth to do it......@ropebag, that logic reminds me of Middle east logic; a taxi was hired by a colleague in Dubai and the driver hit another car at a roundabout, yet my colleague got blamed; if the foreigner hadn't hired a taxi and collided with a native, then it wouldn't have happened, so it's all the foreigner's fault. Money changed hands and my colleague was whisked out of Dubai and never set foot there again.
    Excellent post...
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  5. #105
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Metropolis
    Posts
    2,982
    Post Thanks / Like
    Cue loss of Casa maritime patrol to private operator like CHC which doubles as fixed wing TC - saves the exchequer lots of money (in the here and now) and drives another nail in the coffin of the AC - through no fault of the AC's and to the satisfaction of the useless shower of f**ks in DOD.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  6. Likes sofa liked this post
  7. #106
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,358
    Post Thanks / Like
    There are always manipulations of figures going on; if you went into the Don and counted the actual number of pilots available for Casa duty, it would be quite small, given that rotorcraft are in the majority; same applies to mechs working on the Casas, ATC, storemen, drivers and all the sundry others. Also, you have pilots on ground tours or away on courses/career breaks /leave /sick,etc so the actual, usable headcount is quite small. In the case of ATC, what happened was, when the Casas came into service, they insisted that they be the only source of personnel to operate the mission equipment in the aircraft so that sucked bodies out of ATC, which was already thinly manned and it had the ultimate effect of driving people out of the Don, because flying in Casas, on shift, down the back end, is boring and tiring and a bit dangerous so people voted with their feet and left. It also affected photographers, who used to fly sporadically, who now found themselves rostered to fly, for six hours in a Casa, instead of short flights, so they got fed up and started to leave. It also brought pressure to bear on storemen, drivers and the caterers, who suddenly found themselves having to work hard in a 24 hr environment. Same for the mechs. Life prior to the 24 hr environment, was relatively cushy but now, having to be in at 2 am to service a Casa for a rapid turnaround to do an air ambulance, upset the applecart. The Don suddenly had to do some growing up and it had to do it in a hurry and it did not always do so willingly. Certain little empires fought their corner and it all got very shouty. Events like Dh 248 caused major upsets to cushy lifestyles and it would be unfortunate if R116 has to generate yet another upset, even though the Don is blameless on the non-availability of the Casa for that illfated op. The people who turned off the tap for 24/7 ops will run for cover and I'll bet a dollar that the hapless Don will be blamed, as they are convenient and suitably silent targets.

  8. Likes sofa liked this post
  9. #107
    Major General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,332
    Post Thanks / Like
    Surely though some of the responsibility for the current situation lands at the door of GOCAC? The current office holder came directly from fixed wing and should be unde no illusion as to the current happenings? This is not news! As far back as the introduction of Naval Co-Op these difficulties and the 9-5 mentality and opposition to change was widely known. Even the closure of Gormo as an Air Corps base saw droves leave the service instead of having to commute to south dublin.

    Away from this debate, which will go on and on, latest news reports are suggesting that recovered wreckage from R116 tail section show the aircraft made contact with the rock face of Black Rock Island.
    Very tragic, and we can only hope that the weather permits a fast recovery of the remaining missing crew and the voice and data recorders.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  10. #108
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,738
    Post Thanks / Like
    Journalists are insinuating that the helicopter crashed into the rock, the AAIU statement says ".... consistent with the tail of the aircraft contacting rocky surfaces on the Western end of Blackrock."

    http://afloat.ie/safety/coastguard/i...e-loss-of-r116

    That doesn't necessarily mean it was attached to the aircraft at the time or that it happened during the crash.

  11. Thanks na grohmití thanked for this post
  12. #109
    Major General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,332
    Post Thanks / Like
    That statement is from yesterday. Things seem to be different today.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/201...icopter-crash/
    http://www.thejournal.ie/investigato...98517-Mar2017/
    Jurgen White on Morning Ireland.
    http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radiop...2D03%2D2017%5F
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  13. Thanks sofa thanked for this post
  14. #110
    Major General
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    I would imagine that the two fatality incidents concerning the Cg will cause a review of ops regarding the dispatch of units in the line of risk assessment and critical nature of the op. This will not bring back the brave ones who did not return but may reduce the possibility of future negative outcomes.

  15. #111
    Sergeant Major
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    939
    Post Thanks / Like
    RTE reporting that the Wreckage has been located and identified here's hoping the Remains will be recovered soon.

  16. Thanks danno thanked for this post
    Likes Shaqra, DeV, restless, ibenji liked this post
  17. #112
    Brigadier General
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Newstalk this morning, about 50mm in on the top redslider. DF in Crisis
    http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/...akfast_Part_2/

  18. #113
    Major General
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Reports on radio confirming a T4 has been recovered.

  19. #114
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,738
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blackbox has been recovered and 1 body located

  20. #115
    Major General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,332
    Post Thanks / Like
    Media were asked not to report this until family notified, but Journal.ie and the Mirror went ahead and reported it anyway.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  21. Dislikes DeV disliked this post
  22. #116
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    4,868
    Post Thanks / Like
    MOD: Just a reminder. People have died and their families can be aware of what is posted here. Please do not name names of which bodies may have been recovered until it has been confirmed that their families have been informed. EVEN if that name has been reported in some media outlets. You are all doing very well on this thread but do not underestimate how much it can upset families if the name is released too early.

  23. Thanks trellheim, na grohmití, restless, Orion thanked for this post
  24. #117
    C/S
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    496
    Post Thanks / Like
    Independent reporting divers are limited to 9 minutes on the wreck and other sources say it's at 40 meters.
    Which makes sense as 9 minutes is the no deco limit at 40m on air. For civilians.
    No in-water decompression in those swells makes sense, but no nitrox, or no chamber on board....dammit we need to up our game.

  25. #118
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    171
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    Independent reporting divers are limited to 9 minutes on the wreck and other sources say it's at 40 meters.
    Which makes sense as 9 minutes is the no deco limit at 40m on air. For civilians.
    No in-water decompression in those swells makes sense, but no nitrox, or no chamber on board....dammit we need to up our game.
    chamber is on board irish lights vessel on scene as far as i know

  26. #119
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,738
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by restless View Post
    chamber is on board irish lights vessel on scene as far as i know
    Correct, NSDS containerised one

  27. #120
    C/S
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    496
    Post Thanks / Like
    Correct me if I'm wrong here:
    If they are on single 12 litres, that would leave them at critical on 9-12 minutes, depending on the diver's fitness. But nobody would go down to 40 on a working dive without twins.
    A 30% mix should give them a no-deco time of closer to 15 minutes. I suppose they would have to use 29% to keep to a P02 of 1.4, which these days is the conservative limit.
    A decompression chamber should allow them to directly surface even after half an hour bottom time then use the chamber.
    So it still sounds like they are working to Buhlmann no-deco limits for ordinary air and not using the chamber...
    Unless there are only a couple of dive teams, each team needs at least three hours and increasing out of the water to dive again "clean" without being increasingly restricted on subsequent dives and we might be reading the limits that they are subject to because of repetitive dives without and adequate surface interval...and no use of a chamber or nitrox?
    Last edited by expat01; 25th March 2017 at 21:51.

  28. #121
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,738
    Post Thanks / Like
    NSDS diving course is among the hardest to pass in the DF, they are very fit and very well trained

  29. #122
    Brigadier General
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    Independent reporting divers are limited to 9 minutes on the wreck and other sources say it's at 40 meters.
    Which makes sense as 9 minutes is the no deco limit at 40m on air. For civilians.
    No in-water decompression in those swells makes sense, but no nitrox, or no chamber on board....dammit we need to up our game.
    Irish lights vessel pulled in to Galway on the way up and all that the Navy needed was loaded an board.
    10min max dives, diving in pairs.
    Last edited by sofa; 25th March 2017 at 22:58.

  30. #123
    C/S
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    496
    Post Thanks / Like
    Which means they are either using air, or working to quite conservative limits with nitrox.
    That might make sense. If there is a strong current and swell getting to, keeping on station and working outside the wreck would be hard.
    After that productivity depends on how many pairs, each having a total dive time of around 16-17 minutes and requiring 3 hours off between dives. You'd need 20 divers to enable you to work for three hours before the first pair go back in the water, but I doubt they have a big window of weather and daylight

  31. #124
    Major General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,332
    Post Thanks / Like
    I don't think daylight is an issue affecting dives at present. At that depth surface lighting conditions will mean nothing on the seabed anyway. ROV can provide all the seabed light you need.Dives are being carried out by a combination of naval and garda divers. Not sure if Gardai work with Nitrox. Seems that NS are doing the recovery while Garda continue the area search. Is it too deep for diving with surface supply?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...nday-1.3024934

    The recent book on the NS diving unit did reveal their limitations at depth.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  32. #125
    Major General
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Usually, for NS it is 36m on cylinders and then down to 50m on surface supply. The SS will render it easier to access a given wreck .

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •