GOCAC Retires.

[paul g]

There was an interesting book published by an academic in which he essentially argued that the problem with the 2000 white paper was that all three services regarded each other’s as rivals for a very limited pot of money. As a result, when they got a few quid they basically spent money on themselves without thinking about the other services. The NS OPV programme is a prime example, the NS ordered the three Samuel Beckett class ships without a helideck or hangar, which limits them massively; other navies operate helicopters off OPV in similar conditions to significant effect. The state owned at the time four Dauphins that are now flying off similar sized OPVs to the SBs in Chile around cape horn. But the naval top brass knew that if the Dauphins were overhauled to fly off OPVs it would take money from ships, which would mean power and funding for the bluffwaffe that would otherwise go to the NS; as a result, there might only be enough money for two rather than three OPVS and worse, fewer command spots. Hence the real reason why SB and her sisters have no Heli deck and the Dauphins were flogged off. That’s why there was a five-year gap between the fougas going and the PC9 arriving, the army fought tooth and nail to prevent the PC9 being bought because it wanted the money spent on mowags.
That policy was badly flawed and was shown up especially in chad, where the army had to launch a major expeditionary operation at a time when various offensives in Afghanistan were draining away NATO’s capabilities and the lack of helicopters and transport aircraft meant that operations there had severe limitations, and were carried out in dangerous conditions. Hence why there was so much mention of joint operations in the white paper.
More important the politics have changed, Trump is a nasty moron, but in some ways, is part of a wider trend in America that started from Obama, as he’s also not interested in Europe. The Americans can no longer be relied upon to honour NATO commitments. The middle east is a total tinderbox and the crisis over Qatar shows every sign of provoking a war (Trumps first foreign policy foray shows how limited he is and easy to manipulate; the Saudis would never have ganged up on Qatar had he not approved it), Syria shows no sign of ending while Libya is a mess and west Africa is slowly imploding. Brexit is the biggest challenge to this country since the treaty; like it or not we were only let into the EU because of them and now that they’re gone our choice is either deepen our co-operation (I found out living abroad is that most people on the continent really don’t understand the difference between us and the Scots) or ask Betty Windsor if she’d like us back. Russia is a growing menace not because they’re conventionally militarily powerful, but because they understand new types of warfare, they’re literally writing the book on Hybrid warfare. Europe is alone, and must up its game on security.

[Charlie252]

There was an interesting book published by an academic in which he essentially argued that the problem with the 2000 white paper was that all three services regarded each other’s as rivals for a very limited pot of money. As a result, when they got a few quid they basically spent money on themselves without thinking about the other services. The NS OPV programme is a prime example, the NS ordered the three Samuel Beckett class ships without a helideck or hangar, which limits them massively; other navies operate helicopters off OPV in similar conditions to significant effect. The state owned at the time four Dauphins that are now flying off similar sized OPVs to the SBs in Chile around cape horn. But the naval top brass knew that if the Dauphins were overhauled to fly off OPVs it would take money from ships, which would mean power and funding for the bluffwaffe that would otherwise go to the NS; as a result, there might only be enough money for two rather than three OPVS and worse, fewer command spots. Hence the real reason why SB and her sisters have no Heli deck and the Dauphins were flogged off. That’s why there was a five-year gap between the fougas going and the PC9 arriving, the army fought tooth and nail to prevent the PC9 being bought because it wanted the money spent on mowags.
That policy was badly flawed and was shown up especially in chad, where the army had to launch a major expeditionary operation at a time when various offensives in Afghanistan were draining away NATO’s capabilities and the lack of helicopters and transport aircraft meant that operations there had severe limitations, and were carried out in dangerous conditions. Hence why there was so much mention of joint operations in the white paper.
More important the politics have changed, Trump is a nasty moron, but in some ways, is part of a wider trend in America that started from Obama, as he’s also not interested in Europe. The Americans can no longer be relied upon to honour NATO commitments. The middle east is a total tinderbox and the crisis over Qatar shows every sign of provoking a war (Trumps first foreign policy foray shows how limited he is and easy to manipulate; the Saudis would never have ganged up on Qatar had he not approved it), Syria shows no sign of ending while Libya is a mess and west Africa is slowly imploding. Brexit is the biggest challenge to this country since the treaty; like it or not we were only let into the EU because of them and now that they’re gone our choice is either deepen our co-operation (I found out living abroad is that most people on the continent really don’t understand the difference between us and the Scots) or ask Betty Windsor if she’d like us back. Russia is a growing menace not because they’re conventionally militarily powerful, but because they understand new types of warfare, they’re literally writing the book on Hybrid warfare. Europe is alone, and must up its game on security.

Totally agree, the 2000 white paper was a joke, the latest one isn't much better. The security situation is very different and likely will be different again in the next decade, hence the argument to evaluate and reshape the AC with some effort to aim to provide an effective conventional force for the current threat situation and the ability to react to future threats.

Not a popular thought but, maybe reshape the AC as a conventional Army Air Corps with some Strategic lift rather then Tokenism as an "Air Force"

[TangoSierra]

Or gear it towards the capability the likes of the Command Helicopter Force + airlift/maritime patrol.

PC9s FFS!

[DeV]

There was an interesting book published by an academic in which he essentially argued that the problem with the 2000 white paper was that all three services regarded each other’s as rivals for a very limited pot of money. As a result, when they got a few quid they basically spent money on themselves without thinking about the other services. The NS OPV programme is a prime example, the NS ordered the three Samuel Beckett class ships without a helideck or hangar, which limits them massively; other navies operate helicopters off OPV in similar conditions to significant effect. The state owned at the time four Dauphins that are now flying off similar sized OPVs to the SBs in Chile around cape horn. But the naval top brass knew that if the Dauphins were overhauled to fly off OPVs it would take money from ships, which would mean power and funding for the bluffwaffe that would otherwise go to the NS; as a result, there might only be enough money for two rather than three OPVS and worse, fewer command spots. Hence the real reason why SB and her sisters have no Heli deck and the Dauphins were flogged off. That’s why there was a five-year gap between the fougas going and the PC9 arriving, the army fought tooth and nail to prevent the PC9 being bought because it wanted the money spent on mowags.
That policy was badly flawed and was shown up especially in chad, where the army had to launch a major expeditionary operation at a time when various offensives in Afghanistan were draining away NATO’s capabilities and the lack of helicopters and transport aircraft meant that operations there had severe limitations, and were carried out in dangerous conditions. Hence why there was so much mention of joint operations in the white paper.
More important the politics have changed, Trump is a nasty moron, but in some ways, is part of a wider trend in America that started from Obama, as he’s also not interested in Europe. The Americans can no longer be relied upon to honour NATO commitments. The middle east is a total tinderbox and the crisis over Qatar shows every sign of provoking a war (Trumps first foreign policy foray shows how limited he is and easy to manipulate; the Saudis would never have ganged up on Qatar had he not approved it), Syria shows no sign of ending while Libya is a mess and west Africa is slowly imploding. Brexit is the biggest challenge to this country since the treaty; like it or not we were only let into the EU because of them and now that they’re gone our choice is either deepen our co-operation (I found out living abroad is that most people on the continent really don’t understand the difference between us and the Scots) or ask Betty Windsor if she’d like us back. Russia is a growing menace not because they’re conventionally militarily powerful, but because they understand new types of warfare, they’re literally writing the book on Hybrid warfare. Europe is alone, and must up its game on security.

Totally agree, the 2000 white paper was a joke, the latest one isn't much better. The security situation is very different and likely will be different again in the next decade, hence the argument to evaluate and reshape the AC with some effort to aim to provide an effective conventional force for the current threat situation and the ability to react to future threats.

Not a popular thought but, maybe reshape the AC as a conventional Army Air Corps with some Strategic lift rather then Tokenism as an "Air Force"

It was Roisin and Niamh that were purchased when we had Dauphins. The NS prioritised what they needed and willuse.

Also the AC didn't tender for a/c for maritime ops because they had to prioritise as well. Equally APCs were a must have or we would have had to rely on UN provided SISUs etc.

The first ever Green paper and subsequent WP15 was the future ever national conversation on national defence.

[GoneToTheCanner]

@ C252, a medium lift squadron? With respect, to do what? To go where? C27Js to fly mail to the Leb? C 295s that can't fit even a jeep? The DoF will not pay for C130s and neither will Europe....What does the Don want to do, that the average civvy airline can do better? As for tactical helis, I'll bet a dollar that it'll be more warmed up millionaires taxis, as long as they are made in Europe , with one little machine gun hanging out the side. I live near the Glen and see the 139s going by quite often and it is more than a little embarrassing to see a supposedly military helicopter wearing ski-boots in June in Ireland.....The Army's artillery park is aging rapidly so that's another set of toys that they will want replacing; their Mowags are a pain to maintain and they want a gun vehicle to replace the Scorpions, not to mind the ongoing need to keep the ISTAR kit updated, as well as buy new rifles,etc,etc. The Don will have a tough fight on it's hands to win funds for it's aerial needs, not to mind any upgrading of buildings and infrastructure. I'll bet that the Cessna replacement buy and a fund for attrition is about all you'll see right now, with a weather eye being kept on the Casa replacement.

[EUFighter]

@ C252, a medium lift squadron? With respect, to do what? To go where? C27Js to fly mail to the Leb? C 295s that can't fit even a jeep? The DoF will not pay for C130s and neither will Europe....What does the Don want to do, that the average civvy airline can do better? As for tactical helis, I'll bet a dollar that it'll be more warmed up millionaires taxis, as long as they are made in Europe , with one little machine gun hanging out the side. I live near the Glen and see the 139s going by quite often and it is more than a little embarrassing to see a supposedly military helicopter wearing ski-boots in June in Ireland.....The Army's artillery park is aging rapidly so that's another set of toys that they will want replacing; their Mowags are a pain to maintain and they want a gun vehicle to replace the Scorpions, not to mind the ongoing need to keep the ISTAR kit updated, as well as buy new rifles,etc,etc. The Don will have a tough fight on it's hands to win funds for it's aerial needs, not to mind any upgrading of buildings and infrastructure. I'll bet that the Cessna replacement buy and a fund for attrition is about all you'll see right now, with a weather eye being kept on the Casa replacement.

Some would like the DF's proper funded and equipped to be a modern European armed force. Of being able to perform all the roles they have been assigned.
As far as defence we need to grow up and grow up fast. The rest of the EU are all increasing their spend towards the famous 2%, not just the NATO members. And as for the AW139, painting something green and sticking 2 MAG's on it is the same as putting a DShK on the back of a HiLux. It may be cheap but against proper military equipment it does not have a chance. Hell we even have comfy leather seats installed!

[Charlie252]

@ GTTC.. Not sure what your point is? other then basically its pointless and the AC should be disbanded AS all they provide are essentially civilian services! Or that there is no chance of any capital spending as the other Arms have more pressing needs. The White paper, for what its worth does acknowledge that there is a requirement to spend money on the AC fleet over the nest 10 years.
What I am suggesting is that the AC put its best foot forward in a military sense and re-org with a view to having meaningful military capabilities. I don't think it is unreasonable to have some form of Medium Lift, it was the Army that had a serious look at the C-27J all those years ago. Equally tactical hell's are also an achievable military capability. My point is that the current Org is restricting the AC as it was designed 15 years ago.

However they were only my ideas, I would hope the AC can make a far better case for Military Aircraft. The Naval Service seams to be doing a great job of promoting themselves and their fleet replacement is making good progress and they seam to have political support for a significantly larger vessel.

There should be some level of clear aspiration and forward thinking coming from the AC, another replacement of the training fleet does not count.

More integration with our European Partners seams likely over time and we should have an AC that can contribute to that.. The Army and Naval Service will be ready!

[morpheus]

Even the NS is hamstrung - they dont have a good enough suite of sensors,
Whats is their sonar / submarine detection capability?
no CIWS,
no decent air search radar,
no decent anti aircraft capability
no heli capabilities,

lets go walter mitty on this, but if there was unrest on the borders of Europe and we were heading towads war and if someone was to mine cork harbour and dublin bay tomorrow, it would leave us completely at the mercies of other nations to help us out, majority of sea traffic into and out of the country would be cut.

Lets be honest, the navy needs an air wing, MARPAT role should be their territory, along with Heli's and drones for the OPV's.

Aircorps needs to go to Army and become fully supportive of them, deploying overseas with medium lift helis, lift capable aircraft, ISTAR and a deterrent multirole fighter force such as the Gripen. wont happen, but its what any sovereign country should have.

Brexit, Trump, ISIS, EEZ's changing, dwindling marine stocks, resource wars, etc. If Ireland was in mainland europe, we would not be in existence right now with our current and historical (lack of) military capabilities.

[Charlie252]

Yeah its all a bit Walther Mitty, but what I am suggesting is A re-marketing of the AC.

Somehow turn the Focus away from non military tasks, the reason, is that when they are possible to be performed by a commercial operator the are always hanging in the balance, SAR is the example.

I think there is plenty of scope for conventional Military tasks in supporting the other services, I don't agree with a separate air arm for the Navy as it would require significant duplication of command & Control and maintenance etc.

Realistically Gripens or there Like are not going to happen, there is plenty of other roles that could the aspirational for the AC and add real value to the DF

[GoneToTheCanner]

@252, that is why AC bosses fight tooth and nail to survive because most of their tasks can be done by civvies. After all, the concept that the Gardai would have aircraft of their own was roundly ignored and opposed by the AC and when the gardai finally got some, they won the bunfight to keep the aircraft flown by Donners, but lost the maintenance contract, when every other Police air wing worth the name has it's own pilots or hired in civvies......I suspect that the AC will not relinquish control of it's helis to the Army, proper, without a fight and will insist that all operations centre on Baldonnel and not the Curragh. It's essentially keeping control of the toys, from the people who need them most of all. To make the Don worthwhile, you'd have to get into expeditionary mode and get prepared to ship helicopters overseas. I know army and AC officers have attended exercises and courses in the UK and the USA, so they know how it is done. You would have to get the Don to actively train and practise how to operate aircraft in an austere environment. You also have to fully integrate rotary aviation into Army units so that it's presence is regarded as a given instead of a nice treat. Army and AC officers have seen this for real multiple times and are perfectly aware of how it is done. I know that they have done courses like austere airfield operation and that aircraft cooperation is included in NCOs courses but it's time to get real and do it for real; next time the DF goes to some kip like Chad, make sure there's an EC 135 in a crate on deck.....as for medium lift, before the Casas get retired from maritime, make the case to get at least a 295 for medevac/cargo/parachuting, aside from the maritime role. The Don has lacked a proper utility aircraft since 240 was retired and the Cessnas are too small for credible utility. If, as I suspect, the Cessna replacement will be a surveillance aircraft, it won't be rigged for casual cargo and para ops.......also, I think you are not taking the need for naval aviation seriously. You can't aspire to be a useful part of the DF if you exclude the NS. Even if all they get is a few drones, they have to get something, even if it's only a 135 for ass n trash.

[morpheus]

If they get drones, they HAVE to be naval drone pilots. sorry, thats a fact. the army have their own pilots and the AC should be looking to drones too at this stage.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Couldn't agree more. A deck launched drone would be very useful for a naval vessel.

[DeV]

@C252

As Gttc says infers anything smaller than a C130 will not be able to carry any meaningful load from Ireland and will therefore get limited use and when budgets are tight it is better to have high utilisation. If we are talking within theatre, we don't have the forces to run a SPOD or APOD that the a/c would need to fly it. Yes we could say provide 1 a/c to a EU/UN/other group of 3+ a/c but it would not be efficient use of scarce resources.

There is definitely need for light lift utility (and possible medium lift) tactical helos. But the more the price goes up (ie military spec'ed) the less a/c you can afford.

The AW139 is far from ideal especially with its ability to lift a load a useful distance (or so I've been told) but it isn't the worst compromise in the world.

[DeV]

lets go walter mitty on this, but if there was unrest on the borders of Europe and we were heading towads war and if someone was to mine cork harbour and dublin bay tomorrow, it would leave us completely at the mercies of other nations to help us out, majority of sea traffic into and out of the country would be cut.

our interests are theirs as well that isn't to say that we don't need the sovereign capabilities

Lets be honest, the navy needs an air wing, MARPAT role should be their territory, along with Heli's and drones for the OPV's.

Aircorps needs to go to Army and become fully supportive of them, deploying overseas with medium lift helis, lift capable aircraft, ISTAR and a deterrent multirole fighter force such as the Gripen. wont happen, but its what any sovereign country should have.

it doesn't make economic sense to have 2/3 air arms. A number of AFs provide the naval air component for their navies. That isn't to say that the air corps need to work at being more deployable.

If Ireland was in mainland europe, we would not be in existence right now with our current and historical (lack of) military capabilities.

some less militarily capable countries in the Europe (normally much smaller than us in fairness) who are

Yeah its all a bit Walther Mitty, but what I am suggesting is A re-marketing of the AC. Somehow turn the Focus away from non military tasks, the reason, is that when they are possible to be performed by a commercial operator the are always hanging in the balance, SAR is the example.

I'm a taxpayer and I want efficient multi role AC that when it has spare capacity it is but into jobs that would otherwise involve expensive contracts.

You use SAR as an example. I'm not saying that the AC should have kept SAR and got its S92s. But look at the budget given to CHC to conduct SAR ops. CHC are getting €50m to operate and maintain 5 (I think) S92s 24/7/365 at stated readiness with trained crews. They don't have to provide the MRCC, ATC or CRS staff or operate the aerodromes/airports. I wonder how much including all costs the AC is to operate.

According to the estimates the AC get €16.8m but that doesn't include wages, fuel, uniforms, transport, rations etc. They have that budget to operate an airbase, ATC, CRS, cover ops & training (including initial training), conduct ops (including some limited overseas eg air ambulance to UK), they operate multiple types. AGS budget is over €1m for 3 aircraft (not sure what costs they have to cover for their 3 aircraft with that (considering that they don't have to cover piloting, airbase, ATC, CRS etc). I'm far from saying that the DF (and specifically the AC) are the height of efficiency but imagine what the AC would bd capable of if given the same level of comparative financing.

I think there is plenty of scope for conventional Military tasks in supporting the other services, I don't agree with a separate air arm for the Navy as it would require significant duplication of command & Control and maintenance etc.

Realistically Gripens or there Like are not going to happen, there is plenty of other roles that could the aspirational for the AC and add real value to the DF

+1

@252, that is why AC bosses fight tooth and nail to survive because most of their tasks can be done by civvies. After all, the concept that the Gardai would have aircraft of their own was roundly ignored and opposed by the AC and when the gardai finally got some, they won the bunfight to keep the aircraft flown by Donners, but lost the maintenance contract, when every other Police air wing worth the name has it's own pilots or hired in civvies......I suspect that the AC will not relinquish control of it's helis to the Army, proper, without a fight and will insist that all operations centre on Baldonnel and not the Curragh. It's essentially keeping control of the toys, from the people who need them most of all. To make the Don worthwhile, you'd have to get into expeditionary mode and get prepared to ship helicopters overseas. I know army and AC officers have attended exercises and courses in the UK and the USA, so they know how it is done. You would have to get the Don to actively train and practise how to operate aircraft in an austere environment. You also have to fully integrate rotary aviation into Army units so that it's presence is regarded as a given instead of a nice treat. Army and AC officers have seen this for real multiple times and are perfectly aware of how it is done. I know that they have done courses like austere airfield operation and that aircraft cooperation is included in NCOs courses but it's time to get real and do it for real; next time the DF goes to some kip like Chad, make sure there's an EC 135 in a crate on deck

+1 but resources have to be provided

as for medium lift, before the Casas get retired from maritime, make the case to get at least a 295 for medevac/cargo/parachuting, aside from the maritime role. The Don has lacked a proper utility aircraft since 240 was retired and the Cessnas are too small for credible utility. If, as I suspect, the Cessna replacement will be a surveillance aircraft, it won't be rigged for casual cargo and para ops.......also, I think you are not taking the need for naval aviation seriously. You can't aspire to be a useful part of the DF if you exclude the NS. Even if all they get is a few drones, they have to get something, even if it's only a 135 for ass n trash.

It's in the WP (and FWUA tender (yes utility but para ops not required)).

It makes no sense to give the NS helos (drones yes), if we get something with a helideck use AC owned/piloted/maintained a/c (with adequate (and fair) resources).

[GoneToTheCanner]

Th reason why I include parachuting for a utility aircraft is that it is considerably cheaper to use a fixed wing aircraft for parachuting because heli para ops burns up flight hours on lifed components like there's no tomorrow. Fixed wing para ops is more relevant to SF operations, especially the need to do HALO style jumps. The ARW will always have a need to practise parachute ops and they may as well have access to a jump aircraft, without having to go to Clonbulloge to use theirs. I've said it before; there's room in the Curragh to operate a Caravan type aircraft for Army operations alongside helicopters....the advantage of a naval drone is that it can be deployed quickly, risks no manpower and does not have to go back to land to be serviced......one of the problems of Military SAR is that it would be manned, AC style, with lots of Officers and enlisted men compared to a civil operator. Military bureaucracy is glacial; the process just to order stationery would make your eyes water. In a military unit, the only guy who can drive is the duty driver, except the tug driver. The bureaucracy to get a driving license in the military would make God shake his head, whereas in an airline or a civvy SAR set up, everybody, and I mean everyone, drives the van or the tug or the forklift or the refuelling truck, with the obvious exception of the pilots, so that if someone has to go and get parts at three am, the nearest guy does it. He doesn't have to shake the duty driver out of bed to get stuff. Militaries overload with manpower and make it unwieldy.