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View Poll Results: Should the NS be deployed on Op Sophia instead of Op PONTUS?

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  • Yes

    20 74.07%
  • No

    5 18.52%
  • Not sure

    2 7.41%
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  1. #1
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Op PONTUS to continue?

    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...070#post452070
    Although the above article is incorrect it is not primarily a CT op

    https://eeas.europa.eu/sites/eeas/fi...ne_2017_en.pdf

    So should the NS continue on OP PONTUS or should the State deploy a vessel with Operation Sophia instead?

  2. #2
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Surely a political decision not a military one
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  3. #3
    Major General
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    The recent experience near the Libyan coast shows why a stronger force with a stronger mandate is necessary. i.e Sophia
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  4. #4
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Shouldn't join either, let the participants of the Libyan Air show tidy up their mess.
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  6. #5
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    Surely it is better to try and limit the amount of smuggling rather than hoping that you are in the right location when needed. The NGO's role should be the taxi service while the NS should be part of the deterrent

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  8. #6
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    The Naval Sevice requested to join Op Sophia months ago for "added protection" but the Government refused the request.

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  10. #7
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Surely a political decision not a military one
    Obviously and who's advise would the decision be based on? DoD and COS (with input from others)

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  12. #8
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    For me the only issues would be the public preception, PR etc

    The NS (and wider DF) have go huge public support for PONTUS

    Also politically I'd be surprised if the likes of SF, AAA, Mick Wallace, Clare Daly etc supported it

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  14. #9
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    Sophia has its problems: https://euobserver.com/migration/138451

    These are not Somali pirates ...

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  16. #10
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    I can't believe the EU are being criticised for putting the vessels beyond use. The refugees are as likely to die in an overcrowded wooden boat as in an improvised rubber one.
    Amnesty missing the point as usual.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  18. #11
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
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    Before PONTUS Smugglers had to be sure the boats had a reasonable chance of making it to Europe. Now all they have to do is make it to the nearest naval vessel and the journey is practically in the bag.
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

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  20. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bam Bam View Post
    Before PONTUS Smugglers had to be sure the boats had a reasonable chance of making it to Europe. Now all they have to do is make it to the nearest naval vessel and the journey is practically in the bag.
    What makes you think the smugglers gave a monkies about the boats as long as they weren't on them.

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  22. #13
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
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    They don't, but they can now spend much less on them than before.
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

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  24. #14
    Amadan Orion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    The refugees are as likely to die in an overcrowded wooden boat as in an improvised rubber one.
    .... and in greater numbers. There is no hold to cram people into on the dinghy's.
    Last edited by Orion; 8th July 2017 at 00:12.

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  26. #15
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    The people are being sent to sea to die...the smugglers don't care about the end result.

    There is a solution which seems to hvae been removed, which is deploying troops and securing the coast line so the boats don't make it to sea.

    All those countries who have problems with an influx of refugees, Austria etc. boots on the ground and prevent loss of life before it happens
    Just visiting

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  28. #16
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    Problem is Libya are having none of it. Impossible, with current political situation on the ground to close each seafront. Doing so makes the migrants the problem of the country they are turned back from.
    I did find it strange however that Italy is taking most of the Burden, while spain seems to be escaping the most of the migrant crisis, even though its mainland is closer to the african coast.


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40505337
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  30. #17
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I did find it strange however that Italy is taking most of the Burden, while spain seems to be escaping the most of the migrant crisis, even though its mainland is closer to the african coast
    Morocco and Tunisia are more stable politically and are in a better position to secure their own borders.
    Just visiting

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  32. #18
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Problem is Libya are having none of it. Impossible, with current political situation on the ground to close each seafront. Doing so makes the migrants the problem of the country they are turned back from.
    I did find it strange however that Italy is taking most of the Burden, while spain seems to be escaping the most of the migrant crisis, even though its mainland is closer to the african coast.


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40505337
    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Morocco and Tunisia are more stable politically and are in a better position to secure their own borders.
    The currently non-existent NI Assembly is more stable than Libya!

    Libya currently has more than 1 national government

  33. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The currently non-existent NI Assembly is more stable than Libya!

    Libya currently has more than 1 national government
    The overall social consequences in all of Africa, the Middle East, and near Asia, caused by wars and religious conflicts is causing a mass migration of populations to Europe. The only hope of stopping it is a stabilisation of such social conditions in the countries currently depopulating. Stopping them at the Libyan beaches is NOT a solution, such people need to be assured that staying in their own countries is the better solution. The fault lies with allowing countries to wage war on their own populations without a corrective oversight by world bodies such as the UN and all its subsets.
    We are at a tipping point and major countries in the region need to account for their inaction. Italy should not stand alone.

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  35. #20
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The overall social consequences in all of Africa, the Middle East, and near Asia, caused by wars and religious conflicts is causing a mass migration of populations to Europe. The only hope of stopping it is a stabilisation of such social conditions in the countries currently depopulating. Stopping them at the Libyan beaches is NOT a solution, such people need to be assured that staying in their own countries is the better solution. The fault lies with allowing countries to wage war on their own populations without a corrective oversight by world bodies such as the UN and all its subsets.
    We are at a tipping point and major countries in the region need to account for their inaction. Italy should not stand alone.
    Surely you are not saying that the former colonies can't run themselves due to endemic inability, and should revert to being ruled by grown-ups?

    I remember hearing the same view put forward by a retired senion NGO aid worker in a radio interview a few years ago...
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  36. #21
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The overall social consequences in all of Africa, the Middle East, and near Asia, caused by wars and religious conflicts is causing a mass migration of populations to Europe. The only hope of stopping it is a stabilisation of such social conditions in the countries currently depopulating.
    agreed and part of that is the actions/inactions of major powers

    Stopping them at the Libyan beaches is NOT a solution
    thousands of people are coming out of Libya because it is a failing state (due to Gaddafi and the West's actions/inactions

    such people need to be assured that staying in their own countries is the better solution. The fault lies with allowing countries to wage war on their own populations without a corrective oversight by world bodies such as the UN and all its subsets.
    There will always be refugees and/or IDPs. In a lot of cases they aren't better off staying in their own countries.

    We are at a tipping point and major countries in the region need to account for their inaction. Italy should not stand alone.
    agreed

  37. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Surely you are not saying that the former colonies can't run themselves due to endemic inability, and should revert to being ruled by grown-ups?

    I remember hearing the same view put forward by a retired senion NGO aid worker in a radio interview a few years ago...
    I was in Lagos in the 1950's before the Cement Armadas and we were told that outside of the UK , Nigeria had the best Civil Service , Schooling system. and Army and were a prime example of a country that would be a beacon for self rule for the world at large. The problem is despite good intentions, those in power develop a sense of entitlement and want to retain power and cream off a portion of GDP for personal and familial use. In all these countries a sense of nationality , value, and social stability is missing with NGO's filling gaps and in a way making things worse. Imagine India, a nuclear power, large Navy, Army, Airforce, a huge trading nation and we Europeans are still looking after their street children and a range of social needs. It's more than ridiculous!! The UN needs to act more as a regulatory body with oversight powers to teach and train the Mobutu's of this world how to look after their countries.

  38. #23
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    There is always the arguement that the NGO's are taking the pressure off bad governance by filling in the gaps that the ruling elite can't be bothered to fill. I have a few friends who worked on the ground for NGO's in Africa, the eventually gave up in dispair. Basically, the said that the natives in most cases were not interested in helping or changing the situatuin, just in what they could do to benefit from it themselves. For how many years have NGO's been training teachers, medical staff, engineers etc in Africa?

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions...
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  40. #24
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    This on the BBC. I was surprised at how blatant the people-smugglers are - and how naive the NGO were acting...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-e...-mediterranean
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  42. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    This on the BBC. I was surprised at how blatant the people-smugglers are - and how naive the NGO were acting...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-e...-mediterranean
    one of the smugglers looks to be very caucasian

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