troops helping out in Donegal...

[GoneToTheCanner]

is it just me or is 35 a rather pathetic number of soldiers to send to a location to deal with a natural disaster?

[Sparky42]

is it just me or is 35 a rather pathetic number of soldiers to send to a location to deal with a natural disaster?

Might that depend on what the Council asked for rather than the DF choosing a number?

[DeV]

It always seems to be like that.

Could be all they have available, could be worried about how long it will go on for, could be mission dependant, etc

IMHO they should deploy loads of troops on jobs like this, more done and more quickly, win-win

Of course maybe they are trying to make a point.

[DeV]

According to the radio they arrived from Finner on Friday morning, taskings only issued around lunch time

[Truck Driver]

It is ATCA after all - so the local authority dictates proceedings in the first instance

[X-RayOne]

It is ATCA after all - so the local authority dictates proceedings in the first instance

so LA looked for 30 odd bodies......poor form if the council can't gather up 30 odd of it's own bodies to do the work......it's not exactly hurricane Harvey levels of destruction......

cheap DF labour again i'd suggest.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Council labour manpower nationwide is at an all time low. Virtually all council work these days is contracted out. the old days of having a standing army of Council or Corpo men is gone.

[Bravo20]

so LA looked for 30 odd bodies......poor form if the council can't gather up 30 odd of it's own bodies to do the work......it's not exactly hurricane Harvey levels of destruction......

cheap DF labour again i'd suggest.

I'm with you on this. I fail to see what the role the DF has to do here other than optics. From the photos all they seem to be doing is the donkey work, filling skips etc.

[X-RayOne]

Council labour manpower nationwide is at an all time low. Virtually all council work these days is contracted out. the old days of having a standing army of Council or Corpo men is gone.

agreed.....but doesn't change the fact that DF are seen as a quick fix, when the reality is the civil authorities have other options (civil defence, etc.) and probably should have better contigency plans for such incidents.

what about cancelling leave, calling in off duty LA personnell, actually paying said contractors to do civil clean up???

bus strikes, bin strikes, flooding, snow....call the army, we can't cope!!!! but God forbid the army would be equiped sufficiently to do its actual job

[Bravo20]

And then have it back fire from a PR perspective. When it was announced the questions asked were Why did it take 3 days? Why only 30? and then why did it take them until 1pm to show up on Friday?

[EUFighter]

The ATCA no matter what we think about its effect on operations is a major source of great PR when it is done well. Quick support of the DF to such events just helps to promote a positive image of the DF amongst the general public. It is public support of the DF that allows any budget to be allocated, if it falls any further we can shut up shop. It can also be seen as a chance especially for the Engineers to show what they can do, it can be seen as operational training, repairing road, bridges etc.

As for leaving the decision to the LA here we have a large county with some major infrastructure damage and the decision about support in such cases should be with the government. After all the LA will always ask the government to pay the bills in the end!

[DeV]

And then have it back fire from a PR perspective. When it was announced the questions asked were Why did it take 3 days? Why only 30? and then why did it take them until 1pm to show up on Friday?

And will probably show up (a) how undermanned the DF (b) probably LA incompetence

Troops arrived in the morning not allocated jobs

[DeV]

agreed.....but doesn't change the fact that DF are seen as a quick fix, when the reality is the civil authorities have other options (civil defence, etc.) and probably should have better contigency plans for such incidents.

what about cancelling leave, calling in off duty LA personnell, actually paying said contractors to do civil clean up???

bus strikes, bin strikes, flooding, snow....call the army, we can't cope!!!! but God forbid the army would be equiped sufficiently to do its actual job

I agree with the sentiment but the council I would probably have all the personnel (that they can get) out anyway. The councils etc are covered by a lot of employment legislation that the DF aren't (e.g. Cancellation of leave). They are extra (not replacement) bodies

[GoneToTheCanner]

30-odd lads to shovel dirt and fill sandbags is a cover job, saving face and being seen to do something, when what should have been was a full Company of Engineers with diggers, Bailey bridges, water pumps, Hinos to clear rubble,etc,etc. Civil defence have been conspicuous by their (televisual) absence. Is the CD gone the way of the RDF?

[irishrgr]

It's the same here, even with Harvey. The local authorities request help from the State, if they have the capability, then good. If not, then the State requests the National Guard. If it's bigger than the Guard, then they can request the Feds. My experience with this is some local authorities are good, they simply ask for a capability, i.e. "we need high water vehicles and a pumping unit", others just say "send me troops". The latter is not helpful, because we want to match the response to the need. Here in the US, local govt has primacy in a disaster and woe betide any external asset be it state or federal who just charges in there to help.

I would imagine a similar situation in Ireland, the local authorities request help rather than DoD deciding what is needed and sending what they think is best. While those of us in uniform may have a more nuanced view of how we are employed, it's not up to us. Like in Ireland, local authorities are covered by employment law and do actually have some limits on what they can do. Also bear in mind, in a disaster, those local authority workers may be the ones needing rescue, can't get to work or dealing with a flooded house or whatever. It's good to be a loyal council employee, but my family comes first.

The news has lots of footage of our Guardsmen rescuing people and carrying the elderly to safety, it's a great photo op in the sprit of "if it bleeds it leads" world of the media. What you won't see much of are the troops filling sandbags, handing out bottled water, coordinating shelter spaces & rendering healthcare. It's the unglamorous part of it and in the next few weeks when Harvey is not so newsworthy, you certainly won't see news of troops shoveling debris, loading skips and doing the scut work of disaster recovery.

So, if troops were needed in Donegal to do basic work, then they do it not because hey like it or it raises the DoD profile. They do it because they are Soldiers and told to do it.

A

[na grohmití]

Some years ago in Clonmel during the annual flooding, the manager of a large retail chain who had recently opened a new store in a flood plain, came knocking on the gate of Kickham. He needed sandbags and people to fill them to protect his place of employment. It was Sunday morning. I understand the duty officer gave him empty bags and sent him on his way.....

[DeV]

DFTC Tpt & Engr Gp are on the way to north Donegal with an 80ft double single Bailey bridge for a culvert crossing that was washed away

[Buck]

Jeez they are awfully behind. That bridge was washed away on the day, why has it taken so long to get a bridge from Kildare to Donegal for this? If it's the LA only recently deciding to get the bridge up, then they're morons. If it's the army, I can understand to be fair.

[ropebag]

Jeez they are awfully behind. That bridge was washed away on the day, why has it taken so long to get a bridge from Kildare to Donegal for this....

Why not use airlift?

Assuming your Bridges come in sections the AW-139 should be able to move them - and to be frank, if they are too heavy you should ask a neighbour who has heavy airlift coming out of her arse...

[sofa]

Why not use airlift?

Assuming your Bridges come in sections the AW-139 should be able to move them - and to be frank, if they are too heavy you should ask a neighbour who has heavy airlift coming out of her arse...

You have a point, Britain have not being shy in the past requesting repair crews from here after storms to help them restore power to areas effected.

[Buck]

Why not use airlift?

Assuming your Bridges come in sections the AW-139 should be able to move them - and to be frank, if they are too heavy you should ask a neighbour who has heavy airlift coming out of her arse...

Don't chat. The lack of coordination is amazing (well, not really).

Apparently the Derry LA (or whatever equivalent) called their emergency meeting for the morning after the big storm, Donegal LA had theirs the day after that. WTF?

[DeV]

Why not use airlift?

Assuming your Bridges come in sections the AW-139 should be able to move them - and to be frank, if they are too heavy you should ask a neighbour who has heavy airlift coming out of her arse...

More efficient to drive, the AW139 may be able to lift a 105....... but not very far

[ropebag]

More efficient to drive, the AW139 may be able to lift a 105....... but not very far

It's only about 250km or so from Dublin - not much fun as a flight perhaps, but that should be well within the capability of a helicopter with a theoretical range of 1000km or so...

Fill up at DFTC, drop off the gear, splash and dash into Derry...

[na grohmití]

You can't sling a load from a heli over that distance if passing built up areas. I would doubt that any useful modules would fit securely in the cabin.
Easier, logistically, to truck it down in its usual manner.

[EUFighter]

It's only about 250km or so from Dublin - not much fun as a flight perhaps, but that should be well within the capability of a helicopter with a theoretical range of 1000km or so...

Fill up at DFTC, drop off the gear, splash and dash into Derry...

Range drops off fast when you start slinging loads under a chopper. Normally if you add max fuel and max payload to the empty weight you exceed the MTOW of the aircraft. Max range is always with max fuel but little load. In anycase the AW139'S are VVIP transport helicopters if we want to move large amounts of equipment then there is only one option the CH47, SMD we all know the chances of getting one of them!