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Thread: EU involvement

  1. #1
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    EU involvement

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...84395?mode=amp

    Nearly stopped reading when I read the caption on the first pic.

    "Mowag tank"
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

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  3. #2
    C/S EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...84395?mode=amp

    Nearly stopped reading when I read the caption on the first pic.

    "Mowag tank"
    Mowag did make a tank the Pirat but we never got any!

  4. #3
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    Except the DOD have absolutely no interest in any of this. They'll say publicly it's great and then work tirelessly to hamper any DF efforts to get itself into EU projects.

    Remember capability is more about trained and supported personnel than shiney tech. The Govt, DoD and Gen Staff are either burying their heads in the sand or are actually actively trying to run the DF into the ground.

  5. #4
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    It would appear that PESCO isn’t necessarily a deployable military capability. It could be say the Cadet School training all Maltese officers.

  6. #5
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    Irish involvement in EU defence plan to go before Cabinet

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...inet-1.3290237

    This is how its done Dev


    Ireland’s involvement in a new EU defence framework, Pesco, will go to Cabinet within a couple of weeks, Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney told fellow EU ministers yesterday.
    He said he did not want to pre-empt the decision, but is confident it would be endorsed. The issue will then go to the Dáil where the Government may face some opposition from the neutrality lobby.
    Twenty-three member states yesterday signed up at a ceremony here to participate in Permanent Structured Co-operation (Pesco) which will be officially launched at the EU summit in December, by which stage Ireland is also expected to have joined them.
    Mr Coveney said that he believed this is “a good thing for Ireland”, simply makes “practical sense” and is entirely consistent with the Lisbon Treaty, which Irish voters had endorsed.


    “This does not undermine Irish neutrality . This does not force Ireland to do anything that it is uncomfortable with. This is simply a development that recognises the new realities around the need for more co-operation within the European Union on security issues whether that’s cyber security, whether that’s marine surveillance, whether it’s peacekeeping co-ordination, whether it’s more co-ordinated training efforts.”
    Satellite capabilities
    A Franco-German initiative, Pesco is a voluntary framework for resource-pooling and enhancing the effectiveness of member-states’ cash-strapped defence forces, particularly their interoperability and research programmes, to better equip them for missions under the EU’s Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP).
    Some 47 common projects are under consideration: these range from a “centre of excellence for EU training missions”, to a “European medical command”, a logistics hub, officer training, satellite capabilities, deployable disaster relief capacity, research on a new battle tank, cyber training and rapid response teams, diver training .
    Member states also sign up to a commitment to “regularly increasing defence budgets in real terms”.


    Ireland’s involvement in Pesco
    He said he did not want to pre-empt the decision, but is confident it would be endorsed. The issue will then go to the Dáil where the Government may face some opposition from the neutrality lobby.
    Twenty-three member states yesterday signed up at a ceremony here to participate in Permanent Structured Co-operation (Pesco) which will be officially launched at the EU summit in December, by which stage Ireland is also expected to have joined them.
    Mr Coveney said that he believed this is “a good thing for Ireland”, simply makes “practical sense” and is entirely consistent with the Lisbon Treaty, which Irish voters had endorsed.
    Varadkar defends neutrality as EU steps up co-operation on defence
    Ireland faces a big decision on EU military co-operation
    EU summit: What Europe’s leaders talked about apart from Brexit
    “This does not undermine Irish neutrality . This does not force Ireland to do anything that it is uncomfortable with. This is simply a development that recognises the new realities around the need for more co-operation within the European Union on security issues whether that’s cyber security, whether that’s marine surveillance, whether it’s peacekeeping co-ordination, whether it’s more co-ordinated training efforts.”

    Satellite capabilities
    A Franco-German initiative, Pesco is a voluntary framework for resource-pooling and enhancing the effectiveness of member-states’ cash-strapped defence forces, particularly their interoperability and research programmes, to better equip them for missions under the EU’s Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP).
    Some 47 common projects are under consideration: these range from a “centre of excellence for EU training missions”, to a “European medical command”, a logistics hub, officer training, satellite capabilities, deployable disaster relief capacity, research on a new battle tank, cyber training and rapid response teams, diver training .
    Member states also sign up to a commitment to “regularly increasing defence budgets in real terms”.


    Mr Coveney said that is already an Irish commitment in the Defence White Paper he had introduced when minister for defence. Investment is “badly needed in the context of having modern well-equipped, well-trained Defence Forces in Ireland.”

    Stepping stone
    The move to join Pesco comes after the Naval Service signed up recently to the CSDP Sofia anti-trafficking and humanitarian naval operation off Libya, and our Defence Forces chief of staff, Vice Admiral Mark Mellett, unsuccessfully threw his hat in the ring to become chairman of the EU’s military committee.
    Although France sees Pesco as a stepping stone to what the pledging document refers to as a “new level in the progressive framing of a common union defence policy”, Irish officials say Irish concerns about that level of ambition are met with specific and familiar guarantees framed with Ireland specifically in mind: Pesco wil be run “taking into consideration the specific character of the security and defence policy of all member states.”
    Last edited by morpheus; 14th November 2017 at 12:20.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  8. #6
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    The yoghurt knitters can go to North Korea. Small steps like this - if taken - will gradually lead to increased departmental involvement with the EU and so to a reformed mindset within the DOD.
    Failing that, there's always electro-shock therapy.

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  10. #7
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    It sounds very like EDA

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    EDA is part of the overall framework of PESCO.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  13. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    EDA is part of the overall framework of PESCO.
    An organisation that the DoD and DFHQ have shown contempt for on several occasions even when Ireland was being offered key appointments within the Agency on a platter.

  14. #10
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    An organisation that the DoD and DFHQ have shown contempt for on several occasions even when Ireland was being offered key appointments within the Agency on a platter.
    Why would DFHQ show contempt for something that could ultimately improve their future!?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  15. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    Why would DFHQ show contempt for something that could ultimately improve their future!?
    You would have to wonder. One possible reason is the DF Strength Crisis - Cant let people go to EU other than designated overseas appointments.

    For DoD it's probably costs - i.e financial packages, allowances, terms and conditions, SOFA agreement etc.

  16. #12
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    You would have to wonder. One possible reason is the DF Strength Crisis - Cant let people go to EU other than designated overseas appointments.

    For DoD it's probably costs - i.e financial packages, allowances, terms and conditions, SOFA agreement etc.
    DoD keeping sub etc for themselves?

    I’m let to believe that the sub etc that a DF member gets (say in Brussels) is much less than a DoD CS

  17. #13
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    You would have to wonder. One possible reason is the DF Strength Crisis - Cant let people go to EU other than designated overseas appointments.

    For DoD it's probably costs - i.e financial packages, allowances, terms and conditions, SOFA agreement etc.
    Would you not USE membership to PUSH for an increase in the defence financial envelope - IN ORDER TO staff and equip us to meet the future requirements?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  19. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    Would you not USE membership to PUSH for an increase in the defence financial envelope - IN ORDER TO staff and equip us to meet the future requirements?
    That would require the DOD to see their job as providing for defence, not as gatekeepers who dribble out the minimum required for an arm of the state they have never seen the function of while carrying out their punishment assignments until they get moved to something worthwhile like Finance or the Gaeltacht.

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  21. #15
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    Anti Access Area Denial (A2AD)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    It would appear that PESCO isn’t necessarily a deployable military capability. It could be say the Cadet School training all Maltese officers.
    In the East-West Defence environment the key Defence strategy is to develop A2AD capabilities by making A2AD the corner stone of a Nation's Defence policy. Such Forces are classified as those that contribute to denying unfriendly forces access to your region or hinder their freedom of maneuver.
    A2AD forces include air defence, counter maritime forces, strike weapons, and other precision guided weapons. It is interesting that both Malta and Cyprus contribute to Nato's A2AD screen. It provides us with a reason to have our Defence Forces Policy driven.

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  23. #16
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    which form does this contribution take?

  24. #17
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    A2Ad

    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    which form does this contribution take?
    Electronic Surveillance in all forms , Maritime Patrols air/sea, Mobile response Land/air/sea from Patriot downwards to Manpads. Denial features such as EIED including mining for land/sea traffic. Strike capability similar to CDA of yore. Interaction at all levels with other friendly forces including Tactical links and screens. Availability of necessary response units Land/Sea/Air. Seek support funding from EU.

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